Another Reason Blogs Suck: They Annoy You with the Pesky Facts Big Media Is Wise Enough Not to Bother You With
The New York Times reports that many men are coming home from the war and becoming murderers.
Crab-grass blogger Armed Liberal reports that many more men don’t go to war and still become murderers.
Indeed, those who don’t go to war appear to become murderers at a slightly higher rate than those who do.
The New York Times didn’t mention that part.
More vindication for Helen Thomas!
P.S. A.L.’s commenters point out that his statistics don’t necessarily compare apples to apples due to the lack of available data. So the conclusion that those who go to war are less likely to commit murder is debatable, although likely. The point is that A.L. at least tried to provide some context. The NYT piece doesn’t bother.
The New York Times is gaining on Lancet in the race to smear American soldiers with phony statistics.
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:58 amI’m not going to get into the blogger value debate on this thread. I do however, want to point out 3 things (1) that the number of homeless vets is at its highest level in sometime. Many of these homeless are vets with PTSD or depression issues.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0208/p02s01-ussc.html
http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm
(2) The PTSD cases are becoming a real concern. The way the military does its psych profiles is to ask the troops before they leave the theater about their experience and potential anxiety. Most just want to go home and answer that they are just fine. I’ve got a relative whose husband is going through some serious depression issues. Since he didn’t admit to his feelings he won’t be eligible for VA assistance.
(3) While the rate of civilians versus military who become murderers may be accurate the number of military folks who have become murderers is higher than it was in the past within the military and should be cause for concern.
In the end I hope that these troops won’t be forgotten after Iraq has faded from the center of the news. That is when the “support the troops” sentiment will be needed more than ever. If anyone feels compelled to “do something” I’d recommend checking with your local VA office and ask them if they need assistance with their various programs.
voiceofreason (517388) — 1/15/2008 @ 2:37 am1. I have been a VA patient for more than a decade and have had lots of contact with psych patients in their facility. The mishandling of psych problems goes all the way back to WWII. It has been a closely held secret that a facility called Olive View was warehousing WWII “combat fatigue” cases and not treating them at all. Most are now dead but they were in absolutely horrible shape, delusional, psychotic, schizophrenic, without anybody knowing what was going on. I only mention this to show that there is virtually no competent mental health care within the VA. The only chance is for a patient to raise so much hell that a Congressman will show up and investigate. In my case John McCain became aware of my situation and a ton of congressional types decended upon the place. It resulted in my care being assigned to UCLA. Which worked. The rest of the poor vets remained in the care of psych nurses and other unqualified jerkoffs.
2. The current campaign to paint Iraqi vets as murderers and violent criminals goes all the way back to post WWII when there was an avalanche of stories about vets on criminal rampages. This was ended when the American Legion, then a very powerful pressure group, forced Hollywood to stop. In those days almost all Hollywood artistic types were veterans of WWII and had no axe to grind regarding the evils of Nazism or Bushido, it was just plain old creative laziness. These days the depiction of vets as villians is a part of a deliberate campaign to smear those who have been fighting.
Thank God for the net so that all can realize what is going on.
Howard Veit (cc8b85) — 1/15/2008 @ 7:33 amThe opening case, involved a group of Iraq War Vets who were planning a bank robbery (shades
narciso (d671ab) — 1/15/2008 @ 8:25 amof the recent Dog Day/Inside Man re-imagining
Kill Point). The starting point for the survey
is flawed to begin; imagine if you wrote a survey comparison of veterans committing crimes; 1936-1942; and then in the following 1942-1948 period.
Or the same period before and after the outset of
the Korean Wars. Or comparing the percentages to the last grand ‘quagmire’ Vietnam, 1958-1964 and
1964-1970. This is not surprising as this comes from the same paper, which broadcast the last dying moments of a Marine, on their web sites; without alerting the family first. Or whose freelance photographer, was embedded with the Mahdi Army, two years ago.
One recalls the 1st Oceans Eleven crew were all ex-vets.So economic crimes will be next.
A.L. acknowledged that his statistics were ball park. Now A.L.’s got an update that narrows down the numbers better here.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/15/2008 @ 10:35 am“For instance, while an estimated 500,000 veterans were homeless at some time during 2004, the VA had the resources to tend to only 100,000 of them.”
I would be very leery of relying on these numbers. I spend a day a week in the County Hospital in LA. My medical students interview guys who are 40 years old and claim to be Vietnam vets. Since all troops were gone before 1975, they were 9 years old while serving. The full story of the phony statistics about Vietnam vets is in Stolen Valor.
As far as the VA psych service, I spent a summer in the West LA VA psych hospital in 1962. There were lots of WWII vets and they were getting the best treatment available. Since then, the ACLU has attacked the involuntary commitment of psychotic patients and created the homeless problem. In LA, 60% of the homeless are psychotic, 60% are substance abuse cases and half of each group is both. About 10% of the homeless are situational and those are almost all brief. I’ve spent 40 years working at LA County and that is something I know about.
Mike K (6d4fc3) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:11 amI would be very leery of relying on these numbers. I spend a day a week in the County Hospital in LA. My medical students interview guys who are 40 years old and claim to be Vietnam vets.
These estimates are coming from the VA and Veterans Groups. It should be reasonable to assume that they would strive to ensure they are helping “real vets”.
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:25 amWhy do you think they would lie about this?
Anxiously awaiting the NYT to discuss the nationwide total of killings committed by illegal aliens.
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:34 am7, VOR, the same reason any liberal lies, to get more money from the Feds.
PCD (5c49b0) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:41 amDear Perfect Sense:
Remember, what you wrote is a thoughtcrime. It doesn’t happen, and if it ever did, it is because of horrific border policies solely the responsibility of Chimpy Bushitlercheney. People don’t choose to break the law, outside forces make them do so. Always.
As for veterans committing crimes, how dare anyone actually compare the statistics to the overall population, which is how crime rates are always presented!
You are under suspicion of deviationism.
Think that was an exaggeration? Look at what Kos and his buddies say….
Seriously, Perfect Sense, good luck getting those statistics. They don’t fit the theme.
Eric Blair (2708f4) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:42 amPCD,
It shouldn’t be a liberal/conservative issue. Either you commit to support the troops during and after their service or you don’t.
You discoutnt these numbers because you apply a label to the Veterans Administration and the private veterans groups because you think it is just to get a handout and the only reason that they would lie is the same reason any liberal lies, to get more money from the Feds
How very sad…
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:46 amNotice that the NYT story is of the same theme that got the fraudulent stories by Beauchamp printed in TNR.
Voice of reason, you’ve never heard of a bureaucracy inflating the numbers of an issue they want funding on?
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:49 amSPQR,
For your information.
“The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans (NCHV) — a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization governed by a 13-member board of directors — is the resource and technical assistance center for a national network of community-based service providers and local, state and federal agencies that provide emergency and supportive housing, food, health services, job training and placement assistance, legal aid and case management support for hundreds of thousands of homeless veterans each year.
NCHV also serves as the primary liaison between the nation’s care providers, Congress and the Executive Branch agencies charged with helping them succeed in their work. NCHV’s advocacy has strengthened and increased funding for virtually every federal homeless veteran assistance program in existence today.
NCHV was organized in 1990 by a small group of community-based service providers who were troubled by the disproportionately large percentage of homeless people who are veterans and the lack of veteran-specific programs to help them. We opened our Washington, D.C., office in 1993 in order to work more closely with Congress and Executive Branch Agencies to ensure the inclusion of veterans in federal assistance programs.
According to Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) estimates, government programs currently available will reach only about 20% of America’s homeless veterans. The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans is the only national organization specifically dedicated to improving the opportunities for these deserving Americans to regain control of their lives and once again enjoy the freedoms they helped preserve. Our community-based service providers represent 46 states and the District of Columbia, and we offer assistance to any homeless service provider that contacts our office.
NCHV has become recognized as the nation’s leading authority on homeless veterans issues by several agencies and departments of the U.S. government, and has worked in partnership on projects with the VA, Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Labor and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. NCHV has helped develop and increase funding for homeless veteran-specific programs such as the Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program and the VA Homeless Providers Grant and Per Diem Program, both of which are currently funded at their highest levels ever. We helped write and worked to ensure passage of the hallmark Homeless Veterans Comprehensive Assistance Act of 2001, which, if fully implemented, will provide up to $1 billion for homeless veteran service providers and programs.
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 11:58 am“
“These estimates are coming from the VA and Veterans Groups. It should be reasonable to assume that they would strive to ensure they are helping “real vets”.
Why do you think they would lie about this?”
Read Stolen Valor. After the Vietnam war a lot of anti-war people actually went into counseling and many applied for jobs at the VA. John Kerry was involved with a “veterans group” called Vietnam Vets Against the War. I am just more cynical than you are, I guess. I’ve been around homeless people and homeless shelters for many years and know about most of the myths.
Read particularly (If you ever read Stolen Valor) the section on the Dan Rather report about Vietnam vets living in the woods of the Olympic Peninsula. It was all lies. The book also has a photo of Rather when he was in Marine basic training shortly before he was dropped as “unsuitable”
Mike K (6d4fc3) — 1/15/2008 @ 12:08 pmMike,
Seeing some vets 50 days a year in one location and reading a book doesn’t give you a realistic view of the issue in contrast to what the NCHV has done.
I’ll accept what the NCHV has done and published and do what I can to help – you do what you feel is right. If it makes you feel better to say there is no homeless vet problem have at it.
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 12:15 pmVoice of reason, your cut and paste is non-responsive.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/15/2008 @ 12:51 pmVOR, how sad that your will Monica lies in the name of your liberal, anti-Bush bias.
I support the troops, but real troops, not Stolen Valor leaches that you hang with.
PCD (5c49b0) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:07 pmSPQR,
Of course Bureaucracies do that. NCHV is not a federal or state organization. If you are interested you can read about them.
If not go ahead and revel in one more NYT story dismissed by the blogosphere while ignoring the fact there is an increase in vets who are committing murders when they return, increased suicides, and homelessness.
The cyncial part of me says that too many people see it this way: “the troops served your purposes for the wars — now as veterans they are inconvenient facts you choose to ignore or care about.”
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:07 pmDoes that about sum it up?
PCD,
You are an idiot. You could care less about the troops and your stereotypes show it.
You do realize that there have been three wars and several military operations since the end of Viet Nam don’t you? You like Stolen Valor because it slams Kerry’s former group. That is your only concern.
Have you ever served? How do you tell the “leaches” from the real deal? Are you now Kreskin…..?
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:12 pmAnd Kerry was in Cambodia for Xmas.
VoR, you’re going shrill again…
Scott Jacobs (c0db90) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:14 pmScott,
I didn’t vote for Kerry, don’t like him and have lots of reservations about him.
That doesn’t change my stance about the vets and a need to address their problems.
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:17 pmAnd you miss the point of my comment.
I too, support real troops. I don’t support people who claim to be troops but aren’t, or claim honors they were never awarded.
Are there homeless Vets? Sure. No one is denying that. But when it is pointed out how often people lie about having BEEN a Vet, you accuse US of not supporting troops?
Really, get over yourself VoR. As I said, you’re going all “shrill” again.
Scott Jacobs (c0db90) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:20 pmVOR, you are a liberal elitist too full of himself. What you need is a good taking down a peg and made to regret your superiority complex. YOU MONICA LIES and get angry that we call you on them. You are contemptable.
Oh, YOU don’t care for the troops or the country, just yourself and your misinformed opinions.
PCD (5c49b0) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:24 pmvoice of reason, between the guilt trips and the strawmen, you seem to convinced yourself of an increase in vets committing crimes, but no one else.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:27 pmSPQR,
There is an increase relative to the military – the NYT was wrong in its comparison to civilian rates. Period and end of story. No strawman there.
Scott and PCD,
Your Kerry derangement syndrome is tiresome. Like I said there have been three wars and numerous military operations since Viet Nam. And Scott, yes I accuse you of not supporting the troops because you are so willing to paint the brush of liar on any homeless person who is a vet because some lied about it in the past.
PCD,
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:35 pmYou dodge the question of when you served. Color me surprised.
You cited Vietnam Vets. I commented about the number of people lying about being Vietnam Vets.
You tell me the have been wars since Vietnam.
Are you trying really hard, or are you naturally this stupid?
And what KDS? He’s about as irrelivant as they come these days.
I’m willing to paint someone a liar, but you’re willing to blindly accept them as murderers. Which is worse in your eyes?
Scott Jacobs (c0db90) — 1/15/2008 @ 1:43 pmHow about organizing a blogging group called “Crab Grass Bloggers”?
Motto: We don’t just wear pajamas, we’re weeds!
Bradley J. Fikes (1c6fc4) — 1/15/2008 @ 2:00 pmI’m willing to paint someone a liar, but you’re willing to blindly accept them as murderers. Which is worse in your eyes?
The fact is that some 120 returning vets have committed a murder. This is an increase relative to military specifically.
NYT made a comparison to civilian rates which was erroneous. The blog caught that. People overlooked the “why is there an increase in the number of vets killing someone when they come back”.
Your implication seems to be that I buy off on the NYT characterization which is not the case. But if there is an increase in vets who murder someone (relative to past years and only compared to Vets who got out of the service) when they come back shouldn’t we examine the whys and do what we can to prevent future occurences.
I mention the three wars because the “fake” VietNam Homeless vets facts cloud the issue that non-VietNam era vets are homeless as well.
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 2:05 pmDispute the numbers all you like but even if it is only 100,000 homeless vets that is far too high to be acceptable by a grateful nation.
Cool, a chicken hawk strawman too, you are on a roll VOR.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/15/2008 @ 2:08 pmSPQR,
I’m not calling you names or insulting you. PCD insists on doing this from thread to thread.
Voice of Reason (10af7e) — 1/15/2008 @ 2:11 pm” If it makes you feel better to say there is no homeless vet problem have at it.
Comment by Voice of Reason ”
So 40 years of treating homeless people and visiting shelters and meeting with the directors is making myself “feel better”? Did you address my point that 90% of the homeless are psychotic or addicts ? The vet issue is a red herring. The VA has been treating people for service-connected disability for 70 years. I’m sure there are vets who become addicts or psychotic. They have better resources available because they are vets, not less and the fact that they are vets is irrelevant to their condition.
I suspect that you are trying to make a political point and that is what I object to. For example, this is from the website of the NCHV:
The vast majority are single, most come from poor, disadvantaged communities, 45% suffer from mental illness, and half have substance abuse problems.
How is that different from what I said ? 45% plus “half” equals 95%.
You are trying to imply that serving in the military makes people more likely to be homeless. That is an anti-military position masquerading as sympathy.
Mike K (6d4fc3) — 1/15/2008 @ 2:47 pmMike,
You suspect wrong.
voiceofreason (c38b92) — 1/15/2008 @ 4:47 pmVOR – A more valid point would be that serving in the military makes on less likely to commit a homicide, no?
JD (3cdc37) — 1/15/2008 @ 4:48 pmJD,
Once again here is my point.
a. The number of homicides committed by ex-military has increased.
b. NYT tried to make a comparison to the civilian population that was wrong and disproved outright.
c. If you accept that the number has increased relative to past years that indicates a problem that needs to be investigated.
d. I believe the diagnosis and treatment is lacking in this most recent conflict. Urban warfare is a new area and causes different psychological trauma, therefore not a surprise the facilities weren’t “ready” to deal with it.
e. To address the causes and reduce this statistic is a worthy goal and has nothing to do with a statement on the character of those who serve
f. Homelessness numbers and suicides are on the rise. Another area where transition assistance and treatment where appropriate to reduce these numbers is a worthy goal.
g. I don’t give a rats patootie about “fake vets” as relate to this problem.
h. It is easy to miss the larger picture when the NYT is proven wrong on a claim they make. And that larger picture is the simple question “Why the increase? Is there anything that can be done?”
h. see.. no agenda, no ulterior motives regards the military. I put in a quarter century of my life wearing the uniform. The vets are my friends and colleagues who have my admiration and respect. To see even one of them commit suicide, be homeless, or commit a horrible crime because they were not diagnosed and treated for psych problems makes me very angry.
i. Of all the things that don’t need to take a political spin this is certainly a good candidate wouldn’t you agree?
voiceofreason (c38b92) — 1/15/2008 @ 5:25 pmVOR – Saying it is increasing or that it is a crisis that needs to be addressed is a political statement, as much as you would like to think that it is not. Saying that the former military commit these crimes at a rate less than their civilian counterparts is fact.
JD (3cdc37) — 1/15/2008 @ 5:51 pmVoR, do you understand that the murder rate for Servicemember is still many times below the national average?
How is comparing 18-34 year olds fresh from duty in Iraq or Afghanistan (thus them being Vets) to 18-34 year olds when you pars it to xx/10,000 the way everyone parses all statistics incorrect comparisons?
Is it simply because it makes you and everyone crying about what a horrible problem it is look like a moron unable to derive context?
The number of murders by vets is up. couple hundred total over several years.
You realize we haven’t made new Veterans in a while, right? That you can’t have murders by vets when there aren’t more vets, right?
The increase is because there is a huge increase in veterans. Statistically, you’ll get a spike.
Did you even TAKE a stats class? Or even analytic algebra?
Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 1/15/2008 @ 5:58 pmOk Scott as long as it is below the average and gives you a talking point against a newspaper it is all good I guess – important to you more than me. The fact that it is on the rise for the military vets is cause for concern. How high is acceptable for you?
As for the stats the reality is that the end strength for the services has decreased signficantly in the last few years.
As for not making new vets… you have got that wrong. Every time a person leaves the service whether it is 4 years or 30 they become a vet.
When the suicide rate goes up in the major commands even a couple of percentage points they go all out to identify cause.
JD,
voiceofreason (f2dc97) — 1/15/2008 @ 6:08 pmSaying it is increasing is a fact. Ignoring it is neglect.
I worked up some numbers based on the NYT homicide figures (presented somewhat cryptically in their article), material on the Web, and DoD’s statement to Armed Liberal that 1.6 million people have served in a U.S. uniform in Iraq or Afghanistan. See the comments of that post.
The homicide rates work out to about 2 for Service members and “new” vets who didn’t serve in Iraq or Afghanistan, and about 7 for those who did. (Those are the NYT’s categories, not mine. Plus, the usual caveats apply. Plus, I had to guess at the Times’ definition of the Didn’t-Serve-in-I/A cohort, making that estimate less accurate.) These homicide rates are calculated on a per 100,000 people, per year basis. For comparison, adjusting the U.S. population to the Army’s gender, race, and age characteristics would yield a rate of about 26 homicide offenders per 100,000 per year.
Thus, taken at face value, the Times’ report shows a big increase in the homicide rate of those who served in the war zones (a point the article makes). However, even this much-higher rate appears to be much lower than what one would predict for a group of Americans matched by age, race, and gender (a point the article doesn’t make).
The Times didn’t provide enough details to avoid having to do some guesswork to come up with these estimates.
As far as “Show your work,” email me for a 1-page Excel spreadsheet with the sources, guesstimates, and calculations that led to these estimated homicide rates.
AMac (f0d594) — 1/15/2008 @ 6:23 pmamac-2007 at usa dot net
VOR – It is a “fact” devoid of context. It is meaningless to say that it is “increasing” unless you plan on noting that it is still markedly less than civilians, a point that AMac makes considerably better than I could ever do.
JD (3cdc37) — 1/15/2008 @ 6:44 pm“The fact that it is on the rise for the military vets is cause for concern. How high is acceptable for you?”
You don’t know that and I suspect you don’t care. Among other things, your group’s website lists vets from all wars back to WWII so the 100,000 homeless comes from a population of millions. As far as homicides, the NYT data is suspect and they are not forthcoming on data. It’s the Lancet all over again.
Mike K (86bddb) — 1/15/2008 @ 7:10 pmAs Mike K has noted, the vast majority, approaching entirety, of the homeless are in their current condition due to their drug addictions and/or mental conditions, not because they were a Vet. Are some of these long-term homeless vets; of course, but it is not their veteran status that has propelled them into their current situation (all things being equal, etc.).
What about a comparison of murder-rate (X/100,000) numbers between the vets, and returning Peace Corp (or whatever they call it these days) members? What does exposure to the deprivations of the Third World do to members of our academic elites, or where-ever they recruit such people these days?
Let’s face it, the NYT is just sticking the knife in again to make themselves feel good in their supposed superiority, re-inforcing their existing biases.
This story, along with the crap that they publish under bylines of supposedly neutral observers and commentators (see Linda Greenhouse), are just more reasons to avoid the product of their efforts, and the goods and services of their advertisers.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 1/15/2008 @ 7:39 pmThe VA has inflated numbers before so no surprise if they balloon the numbers of homeless veterans.
chas (d7c0b2) — 1/15/2008 @ 7:58 pmIf the problem was diminishing, then there would be less reason for the large bureaucracy at the VA. Have to make the problem appear to be worsening so that the funding can be continued, at a greater rate of course.
Another Drew (8018ee) — 1/15/2008 @ 8:09 pmOkay guys I give up – you win
Fuck the vets they are all liars and want to take your tax money.
voiceofreason (f2dc97) — 1/15/2008 @ 8:27 pmvoiceofreason, that game of yours got old long ago.
SPQR (26be8b) — 1/15/2008 @ 8:32 pmVOR – Where is your info on the number of homeless vets coming from? Is it the anecdotal evidence from the February 2005 story in the CS Monitor? The NCHV says the number can’t be measured accurately according to their website. Have you got a link you haven’t posted?
daleyrocks (906622) — 1/15/2008 @ 8:43 pmOne begins to suspect that the button VOR sees below his comment field says “flush” instead of “submit comment.”
Merovign (4744a2) — 1/16/2008 @ 2:31 pmIowahawk has a nice counterpoint to the NY Times today – Bylines of Brutality.
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/01/notepads-of-sha.html
daleyrocks (906622) — 1/17/2008 @ 9:32 pm