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	<title>Comments on: Is This Entrapment?  You Be the Judge (Updated)</title>
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	<description>Harangues that just make sense</description>
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		<title>By: Joel Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-311259</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-311259</guid>
		<description>I emailed Jodi Andes, the Columbus Dispatch reporter, and she confirms that the police said in court that the topless woman was neither an undercover cop nor unofficially working for the police.  

It appears that the police were using the topless sunbather as an, err, attractive nuisance.  The whole operation may or may not have been a waste of police resources (I&#039;d argue that it wasn&#039;t, given what we know), but unless the cops were lying in court, it isn&#039;t what most folks would think of as &quot;entrapment.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I emailed Jodi Andes, the Columbus Dispatch reporter, and she confirms that the police said in court that the topless woman was neither an undercover cop nor unofficially working for the police.  </p>
<p>It appears that the police were using the topless sunbather as an, err, attractive nuisance.  The whole operation may or may not have been a waste of police resources (I&#8217;d argue that it wasn&#8217;t, given what we know), but unless the cops were lying in court, it isn&#8217;t what most folks would think of as &#8220;entrapment.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: htom</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-311051</link>
		<dc:creator>htom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-311051</guid>
		<description>The police didn&#039;t charge her with complicity because they wanted her to continue to entice men, rather than being in court. Hence, entrapment. As is the stupid NYPD bag thing.

Those of you who&#039;ve avoided entanglement with the officers and agents, be glad that you were not charged with interfering with the officer&#039;s attempt to arrest you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The police didn&#8217;t charge her with complicity because they wanted her to continue to entice men, rather than being in court. Hence, entrapment. As is the stupid NYPD bag thing.</p>
<p>Those of you who&#8217;ve avoided entanglement with the officers and agents, be glad that you were not charged with interfering with the officer&#8217;s attempt to arrest you!</p>
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		<title>By: tired</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-311044</link>
		<dc:creator>tired</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-311044</guid>
		<description>Why didn&#039;t the police charge her? Because the only source I can find that she induced him to expose himself is from the defense attorney.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why didn&#8217;t the police charge her? Because the only source I can find that she induced him to expose himself is from the defense attorney.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-311043</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-311043</guid>
		<description>A few  years ago, I was sitting at my computer, minding my own business, when an AOL IM popped up.  CuteYoungThing14 wanted to chat.

I accepted, assuming that my older daughter -- that age at that time -- had picked an extremely inappropriate screen name, and intending to have a few choice and not necessarily gentle words with her about that.  (I also considered the possibility that it was a friend who is a daughter of a friend of mine; in my social circle, friendships between folks of different generations are common; all of Steve Brust&#039;s kids are, to one extent or another, friends of mine -- as was his Mom, of whom I was ordinately and very fond --  and I think every one of his kids, at one point or another, babysat mine, and I&#039;m expecting that my kids will be babysitting his kids&#039; kids at some point.) 

But no.  CuteYoungThing14 explained that she had met me in a chat room the night before (seemed fairly unlikely, since I don&#039;t do chat rooms), and wanted to continue the conversation.  

I explained the above; that didn&#039;t seem to faze her. She asked me how old I was  -- &quot;Utterly ancient,&quot; I said -- and what I was wearing.  To which I responded as follows:

&lt;blockquote&gt;There&#039;s two possibilities:

1.  Young lady, you really should have a chat with your folks about chatting with strangers on the Internet.  Bad things can happen, although they won&#039;t, this time, or 

2.  No, Officer, I&#039;m not interested in becoming the new blonde on the cell block.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
CuteYoungThing14 immediately signed off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few  years ago, I was sitting at my computer, minding my own business, when an AOL IM popped up.  CuteYoungThing14 wanted to chat.</p>
<p>I accepted, assuming that my older daughter &#8212; that age at that time &#8212; had picked an extremely inappropriate screen name, and intending to have a few choice and not necessarily gentle words with her about that.  (I also considered the possibility that it was a friend who is a daughter of a friend of mine; in my social circle, friendships between folks of different generations are common; all of Steve Brust&#8217;s kids are, to one extent or another, friends of mine &#8212; as was his Mom, of whom I was ordinately and very fond &#8212;  and I think every one of his kids, at one point or another, babysat mine, and I&#8217;m expecting that my kids will be babysitting his kids&#8217; kids at some point.) </p>
<p>But no.  CuteYoungThing14 explained that she had met me in a chat room the night before (seemed fairly unlikely, since I don&#8217;t do chat rooms), and wanted to continue the conversation.  </p>
<p>I explained the above; that didn&#8217;t seem to faze her. She asked me how old I was  &#8212; &#8220;Utterly ancient,&#8221; I said &#8212; and what I was wearing.  To which I responded as follows:</p>
<blockquote><p>There&#8217;s two possibilities:</p>
<p>1.  Young lady, you really should have a chat with your folks about chatting with strangers on the Internet.  Bad things can happen, although they won&#8217;t, this time, or </p>
<p>2.  No, Officer, I&#8217;m not interested in becoming the new blonde on the cell block.</p></blockquote>
<p>CuteYoungThing14 immediately signed off.</p>
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		<title>By: nk</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-311041</link>
		<dc:creator>nk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-311041</guid>
		<description>I may have too timid an approach to the defense of entrapment but the case Beldar cites in comment #62 is spot on.  The second prong, &lt;i&gt;the inducement was such that it caused an ordinarily law-abiding citizen of average resistance to nevertheless commit the offense&lt;/i&gt;, is a killer.  On one case, I had the judge bemoan the fact that my client was an idiot who just &quot;went along&quot; and was now facing a mandatory minimum sentence but he nonetheless found him guilty.  On another, even though my client initiated the fraudulent scheme, I was succesful in persuading the court that the crime would not have been completed without the actions of the police and I was able to reduce the conviction to attempt.  In my &quot;station adjusted&quot; case that I mentioned earlier, the decoy&#039;s conduct was so unprofessional that the detectives who were doing the paperwork started laughing.  It&#039;s a grasping at straws defense coupled with the pitfall of essentially accusing the police of misconduct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have too timid an approach to the defense of entrapment but the case Beldar cites in comment #62 is spot on.  The second prong, <i>the inducement was such that it caused an ordinarily law-abiding citizen of average resistance to nevertheless commit the offense</i>, is a killer.  On one case, I had the judge bemoan the fact that my client was an idiot who just &#8220;went along&#8221; and was now facing a mandatory minimum sentence but he nonetheless found him guilty.  On another, even though my client initiated the fraudulent scheme, I was succesful in persuading the court that the crime would not have been completed without the actions of the police and I was able to reduce the conviction to attempt.  In my &#8220;station adjusted&#8221; case that I mentioned earlier, the decoy&#8217;s conduct was so unprofessional that the detectives who were doing the paperwork started laughing.  It&#8217;s a grasping at straws defense coupled with the pitfall of essentially accusing the police of misconduct.</p>
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		<title>By: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-311035</link>
		<dc:creator>Xrlq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-311035</guid>
		<description>NK, I&#039;m not sure where you get your definition of entrapment.  What I recall is more like the definition Beldar provided.  &quot;Induce&quot; does not mean &quot;force,&quot; only that the criminal disposition originated with the police rather than a weak but generally law-abiding defendant.  If the sunbather was working with the cops, it&#039;s entrapment.  If she wasn&#039;t, it wasn&#039;t - but in that case, query why she wasn&#039;t charged as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NK, I&#8217;m not sure where you get your definition of entrapment.  What I recall is more like the definition Beldar provided.  &#8220;Induce&#8221; does not mean &#8220;force,&#8221; only that the criminal disposition originated with the police rather than a weak but generally law-abiding defendant.  If the sunbather was working with the cops, it&#8217;s entrapment.  If she wasn&#8217;t, it wasn&#8217;t &#8211; but in that case, query why she wasn&#8217;t charged as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Christoph</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-310974</link>
		<dc:creator>Christoph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 05:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-310974</guid>
		<description>Actually, sad story on the subject of pretty prostitutes.

Back when I used to smoke, I was taking a ferry from Vancouver Island to North Vancouver and met a beautiful and well-dressed 18-year old girl reading a large and fairly serious novel. I asked her if I could buy a smoke off her and she just gave me a couple and we talked. She was very intelligent. We shared poetry we had each written and she told me about wanting to go back to school and how she had gotten off drugs recently. She didn&#039;t look the type at all. We exchanged phone numbers and email addresses.

&lt;i&gt;The next day&lt;/i&gt; I had business around Vancouver&#039;s awful and infamous Main and Hastings intersection. There she was &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/brucedean/292552750/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;(exactly at the location of this photo)&lt;/a&gt;. She was obviously high and out of it. I said something to her, but she looked embarrassed to see me. In any case, she was under the control of a large shirtless violent-looking pimp.

That&#039;s the end of the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, sad story on the subject of pretty prostitutes.</p>
<p>Back when I used to smoke, I was taking a ferry from Vancouver Island to North Vancouver and met a beautiful and well-dressed 18-year old girl reading a large and fairly serious novel. I asked her if I could buy a smoke off her and she just gave me a couple and we talked. She was very intelligent. We shared poetry we had each written and she told me about wanting to go back to school and how she had gotten off drugs recently. She didn&#8217;t look the type at all. We exchanged phone numbers and email addresses.</p>
<p><i>The next day</i> I had business around Vancouver&#8217;s awful and infamous Main and Hastings intersection. There she was <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/brucedean/292552750/" rel="nofollow">(exactly at the location of this photo)</a>. She was obviously high and out of it. I said something to her, but she looked embarrassed to see me. In any case, she was under the control of a large shirtless violent-looking pimp.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the end of the story.</p>
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		<title>By: Christoph</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-310971</link>
		<dc:creator>Christoph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 05:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-310971</guid>
		<description>Jay Curtis, you handled that well. I have seen pretty prostitutes, by the way, so she could have been one. But the fact she turned down a bus ticket is suspicious, if only because it could be sold back to the bus company for cash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay Curtis, you handled that well. I have seen pretty prostitutes, by the way, so she could have been one. But the fact she turned down a bus ticket is suspicious, if only because it could be sold back to the bus company for cash.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Curtis</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-310964</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-310964</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Prostitution stings: For both the prostitute and the john stings with undercover cops, they’re usually set up in areas where people are peddling their wares. Again, these people would be participating, if not for getting caught. Not normally close to entrapment. (Side note: Yes, they usually use officers for both sides. Not topless ones, though.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Interesting side note here. I am a computer consultant for a number of local restaurants. One of the stores is on El Cajon Blvd. in the Hillcrest area of San Diego, an area commonly know for prostitution. Late in the afternoon a few weeks ago, as I was exiting this restaurant, a VERY attractive, young, scantily clad woman approached me as I was getting ready to get in my car. She looked distraught and was severely under dressed for the weather. I asked her if she was okay. She then suggested that she was available and wanted to know if she could go with me. 

Now, I am not stupid, I have watched television, I have read reports about prostitution stings, and I have NEVER seen a pretty prostitute. So I added 1 + 1 and decided to have some fun. (Did I mention that she was beautiful, early 20&#039;s, and very under dressed?) So I again asked here what was wrong and if she needed help. This started a sob story with many various problems and issues. After she told me her boyfriend was abusing here, I suggested that I call her a cab to take her to a local womens shelter. She wasn&#039;t interested so she told me another story which had involved a pimp and how she just wanted to get away and would do anything. So, I suggested that I call the cops to come help her. Next was another story about needing to get to LA and just needing a ride as far as I was willing to go. Wink, Wink. So I offered to buy her a bus ticket. There were several much more explicit offers mixed in. 

After about 20 minutes, she threw up her hands and walked away muttering under her breath. Had she really been in trouble, I had offered her assistance in getting the help she needed for that scenario. I had offered her assistance with transportation, access to a phone to call anyone she needed to call, assistance with contacting various shelters, legal resources, etc. What I did not do was offer her anything that would compromise me. I am fairly sure she was SDPD, but I couldn&#039;t prove it. I wish I&#039;d had the time to sit around and watch to see what happened later. I would have liked to confirmed that she was police and not just someones daughter making a very bad choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Prostitution stings: For both the prostitute and the john stings with undercover cops, they’re usually set up in areas where people are peddling their wares. Again, these people would be participating, if not for getting caught. Not normally close to entrapment. (Side note: Yes, they usually use officers for both sides. Not topless ones, though.)</p></blockquote>
<p>Interesting side note here. I am a computer consultant for a number of local restaurants. One of the stores is on El Cajon Blvd. in the Hillcrest area of San Diego, an area commonly know for prostitution. Late in the afternoon a few weeks ago, as I was exiting this restaurant, a VERY attractive, young, scantily clad woman approached me as I was getting ready to get in my car. She looked distraught and was severely under dressed for the weather. I asked her if she was okay. She then suggested that she was available and wanted to know if she could go with me. </p>
<p>Now, I am not stupid, I have watched television, I have read reports about prostitution stings, and I have NEVER seen a pretty prostitute. So I added 1 + 1 and decided to have some fun. (Did I mention that she was beautiful, early 20&#8217;s, and very under dressed?) So I again asked here what was wrong and if she needed help. This started a sob story with many various problems and issues. After she told me her boyfriend was abusing here, I suggested that I call her a cab to take her to a local womens shelter. She wasn&#8217;t interested so she told me another story which had involved a pimp and how she just wanted to get away and would do anything. So, I suggested that I call the cops to come help her. Next was another story about needing to get to LA and just needing a ride as far as I was willing to go. Wink, Wink. So I offered to buy her a bus ticket. There were several much more explicit offers mixed in. </p>
<p>After about 20 minutes, she threw up her hands and walked away muttering under her breath. Had she really been in trouble, I had offered her assistance in getting the help she needed for that scenario. I had offered her assistance with transportation, access to a phone to call anyone she needed to call, assistance with contacting various shelters, legal resources, etc. What I did not do was offer her anything that would compromise me. I am fairly sure she was SDPD, but I couldn&#8217;t prove it. I wish I&#8217;d had the time to sit around and watch to see what happened later. I would have liked to confirmed that she was police and not just someones daughter making a very bad choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Christoph</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/comment-page-2/#comment-310962</link>
		<dc:creator>Christoph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-310962</guid>
		<description>Well, nate, one thing I&#039;ll say: According to DRJ&#039;s comment &lt;a href=&quot;http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-310808&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;#31&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;So [Police Detective] Elias asked the woman to move to the rear of the park, which she did. But men still drove by to see her.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;i&gt;If&lt;/i&gt; this woman wasn&#039;t an agent of the state and she knew police were working in the park and she still asked the man to pull out his johnson, then she is the the world&#039;s ultimate &lt;i&gt;bitch.&lt;/i&gt;

Anyone disagree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, nate, one thing I&#8217;ll say: According to DRJ&#8217;s comment <a href="http://patterico.com/2007/12/28/is-this-entrapment-you-be-the-judge/#comment-310808" rel="nofollow">#31</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;So [Police Detective] Elias asked the woman to move to the rear of the park, which she did. But men still drove by to see her.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p><i>If</i> this woman wasn&#8217;t an agent of the state and she knew police were working in the park and she still asked the man to pull out his johnson, then she is the the world&#8217;s ultimate <i>bitch.</i></p>
<p>Anyone disagree?</p>
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