Patterico's Pontifications

12/26/2007

It’s the Fathers, Stupid

Filed under: Crime,General — Jack Dunphy @ 12:28 am

[Guest post by Jack Dunphy]

A story in Tuesday’s L.A. Times discussed the growing problem of gang violence in the northwest area of Pasadena, California. A recent victim of that violence was Dion Holloway, 17, who was shot and killed on September 25. According to the Times’s Homicide Blog, Dion’s older brother was himself murdered in Pasadena in 2005.

The news story mentioned it only as a biographical detail, but the key to almost all gang violence can be found in this sentence: “Three men have been arrested in the death of the youth, who had recently become a father and dreamed of playing football for USC and the NFL.”

Holloway lived with a guardian, but she was in the hospital the night he was shot. His mother also lives in northwest Pasadena, but the story made no mention of why Holloway wasn’t living with her. Also unmentioned was Holloway’s father. And no one will ever report on it, but I’ll bet a paycheck that at least two of the three suspects arrested in the murder were themselves abandoned by their fathers, and that they, too, have fathered children they neither love nor support.

When will it end?

161 Responses to “It’s the Fathers, Stupid”

  1. It’ll end Jack, when we get rid of “The Bird Feeder” of states entitlements.
    But don’t hold your breath on that one.
    More than likely the next big shift in society will come with the advent of a Male contraceptive pill.
    THAT will be interesting.

    paul srom fl (47918a)

  2. Mr. Dunphy

    Jack Cashill, in “What’s the matter with California” suggests the problem started with No Fault Divorce”.

    Paul:

    What makes you think the man’s pill will work any better than the woman’s pill.

    davod (5bdbd3)

  3. The problem is society’s cheapening of fatherhood. No fault divorce plays and bias in custody decisions plays in by reducing the fathers responsibility, and his rights, to being a virtual ATM. When all you are, legally, to your children is a sperm donor and a paycheck, there’s very little motivation to doing any actual parenting. If we return fatherhood to respectability, we’ll get more respectable fathering.

    davod, a male pill will allow both parties to have a choice in the procreation decision. With a woman on the pill, you just have to trust her to be taking it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  4. No one will really like what I’ve got to say, but I’ll say it anyway: you’ll solve the problem when you get teenaged girls to stop acting like teenaged boys, and screwing anyone who comes around.

    We didn’t have this problem fifty years ago, when unmarried girls and women were expected to not screw around, and faced social ostracism if they did.

    Was it unfair? Yeah, it put the burden of responsibility in sex on women, but the fact is that nature does that: women are the ones who get pregnant, are the ones who bear by far the greater consequences of pregnancy.

    But today, you’ve got young ladies like Samhita Mukhopadhyay of the popular blog Feministing writing:

    I have, let’s see, NO friends that don’t have sex with a guy within the first week of dating him.

    Miss Mukhopadhyay isn’t just some wild commenter, but wrote that in the main article.

    My rant about that is here. [Shameless blog plug alert!]

    Dana (3e4784)

  5. When I lived in inner-city Philadelphia, I took my two-year-old daughter to the playground one afternoon. All the other children stared at us, there were no other adults around. At first I thought it was a racial thing, but then one got up the courage to talk to me.

    All the little girl said to me was – are you her father?

    It was like they had never seen one before.

    Amphipolis (e6b868)

  6. It will end with tribalism, a parallel tribal government and all the chaos that goes with that.

    We are seeing signs already. Why do you think gangs are so hard to eradicate? Heaven help us when they eventually get their Charles Martel, or Red Cloud, or Shaka Zulu, or successfully adopt and adapt the Sicilian mafia methods.

    Oh, well, at least it will restore order.

    BlacquesJacquesShellacques (324683)

  7. . . . have fathered children they neither love nor support.

    But they kid a cute outfit now and then and that is all that matters. I will never forget the time in Pasadena when 3 good young teens were gunned down by gangbangers on Halloween.

    tired (df6088)

  8. Between David and Iapetus, I don’t which to laugh at first.

    Laugh at, not with.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  9. Oops, that went in the wrong thread. My apologies.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  10. #4 Dana: No one will really like what I’ve got to say, but I’ll say it anyway: you’ll solve the problem when you get teenaged girls to stop acting like teenaged boys, and screwing anyone who comes around.

    As un-PC as it is to say that – there is certainly some truth to it.

    I think however, that teenage girls are much more likely to stop screwing anyone who comes around if they’ve had a father in their lives. No guarantees, of course, but it makes sense that having no father may play a large role in such promiscuity and lack of self-worth.

    akm (ee680a)

  11. I’m halfway through Clarence Thomas’s book. One thing that sees clear: without the strong male influence of his grandfather, he might well have been headed for a life of crime — another inner-city youth without a father or other positive male role model.

    Patterico (b2edf7)

  12. oh puhleeze….

    *everyone* knows it’s the lack of gun control and the greed of the rich people of Pasadena who haven’t done enough for the poor in their city.

    (sorry, i couldn’t even type that with a straight face. %-)

    redc1c4 (dcc4d4)

  13. “I’m halfway through Clarence Thomas’s book. One thing that sees clear: without the strong male influence of his grandfather, he might well have been headed for a life of crime — another inner-city youth without a father or other positive male role model.”

    My gorge rises at the notion of a “positive male role model.” Never had one and I turned out spendidly.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  14. “The news story mentioned it only as a biographical detail, but the key to almost all gang violence can be found in this sentence…”
    That’s what we need. More abusive men and then what? pedophile priests too?
    cock-worshiping cops will save the day.

    blah (fb88b3)

  15. David E:

    My gorge rises at the notion of a “positive male role model.” Never had one and I turned out spendidly.

    Well that’s up for debate, and for arguement number 1, I would cite your opinion of positive male role models.

    gahrie (5ae14f)

  16. David,

    You’re no Clarence Thomas, either.

    ras (fc54bb)

  17. akm,

    I think however, that teenage girls are much more likely to stop screwing anyone who comes around if they’ve had a father in their lives. No guarantees, of course, but it makes sense that having no father may play a large role in such promiscuity and lack of self-worth.

    That’s a fact. Name jujst about any unwanted behaviour you like from teen pregnancy to crime to suicide to dropping out of school and you’ll find a remarkable increase in it among children from fatherless homes.

    That’s what we need. More abusive men and then what? pedophile priests too?
    cock-worshiping cops will save the day.

    Gee, who would have guessed that blah would be a misandrist? Color me shocked.

    Pablo (99243e)

  18. Some numbers here.

    Pablo (99243e)

  19. That’s what we need. More abusive men and then what?

    False dilemma.

    I’m starting to think blah is a very sophistated random link and logical fallacy generation program.

    Steverino (e00589)

  20. No stevo I’m just having a bit of fun at the expense of racist Cops The National Review and Pedophile priests. They all overlap in my mind because they’ve overlapped in my life: an ex-girlfriend’s family and before that my childhood growing up in a black neighborhood.

    I’m not opposed in any way to united families, except to the extent that large extended families are healthier than small ones. But I’m a little sick of the logic of the submissive female that runs through right wing crap. specifically religious right wing crap. Father as master of the house etc. It’s pretty silly, and pretty common. “Promise Keepers” etc. Don’t pretend otherwise.

    Also I’m a little bored of this: I don’t know where Pat got the idea I was female, perhaps from occasionally saying “no dear” to express derision to idiots regardless of gender, but I’m 6’1″ 200 pounds and male.

    blah (fb88b3)

  21. 6’1″, and a milligram of cranial matter.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  22. Only a damned lefty would need to qualify their comments by saying they are “not opposed…to united families”. Like that’s some big concession the conservatism, families together.

    Good to have you on board!

    spongeworthy (9b4e06)

  23. But I’m a little sick of the logic of the submissive female that runs through right wing crap. specifically religious right wing crap. Father as master of the house etc. It’s pretty silly, and pretty common. “Promise Keepers” etc. Don’t pretend otherwise.

    Straw man. What’s being argued here is that it is critical to a child’s development to have a father in his life, not that women should be submissive.

    Also I’m a little bored of this: I don’t know where Pat got the idea I was female, perhaps from occasionally saying “no dear” to express derision to idiots regardless of gender, but I’m 6′1″ 200 pounds and male.

    I’ve never referred to you as a female, so I don’t know where you get this from.

    So far, I’m completely unimpressed with your argument tactics. You use fallacious reasoning at virtually every turn, your links don’t support the point you’re trying to make, and you change the subject whenever you’re caught.

    Steverino (e00589)

  24. With blah’s self description, I can only say two out of three ain’t bad.

    The Clarence Thomas book should have been in every teenager’s Christmas stocking.

    David has high self esteem and the teachers’ unions tell us that is all that’s necessary to excel. They tell what those kids will excel at, of course.

    Mike K (6d4fc3)

  25. “You’re no Clarence Thomas, either.”

    Easily the greatest compliment I’ve recieved in some time. Thanks!

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  26. “David has high self esteem”

    And how do you suppose I acquired it, Mike?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  27. Also I’m a little bored of this: I don’t know where Pat got the idea I was female, perhaps from occasionally saying “no dear” to express derision to idiots regardless of gender, but I’m 6′1″ 200 pounds and male.

    Well, blah, it might have been a few days ago when you said:

    I’m a big girl.

    But I understand that you have trouble keeping reality sorted out, so it’s OK with me if you’re not really sure what you are from one day to the next.

    Pablo (99243e)

  28. Actually, blah, you implied yourself to be female in another thread. Doesn’t bother me, we’ve learned that you contradict yourself and I don’t believe anything you write.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  29. David, I suspect that Mike does not think that high esteem, in the absence of any actual talent, skill or accomplishment, is a good thing. He’s got a point.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  30. The title of the post:
    “It’s the Fathers, Stupid”
    It’s a lot of things, including but not exclusively those you obsess over. If you’re going to make such a stupid generalization and give men so much importance that everything else[!] is secondary, I’m going to respond just as I did, with mockery.

    blah (fb88b3)

  31. They all overlap in my mind because they’ve overlapped in my life

    Ah. Another lefty working out his personal issues through his political opinions.

    As for David — the idea of a “positive male role model” truly makes you ill? Do you plan on leaving any children you sire to be raised without your involvement? Do you think that would be good for them?

    Rob Crawford (8578d9)

  32. I can see the benefits, Rob.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  33. “I’m a big girl”
    By that point I was playing along. That’s what I became bored of. But it began with Pat saying he thought by my tone that I was a certain sort of annoying female. Stupid on his part, but I let it slide.

    blah (fb88b3)

  34. If you’re going to make such a stupid generalization and give men so much importance that everything else[!] is secondary…

    No one said “everything else is secondary”; you created that strawman.

    This is odd… OK, David says he never had a “strong male role model” in his life. What about you, blah? You clearly have issues with stereotypes of people, but what about real people? Didn’t your father, grandfather, a neighbor, or a family friend have any positive influence on your understanding of what it means to be male?

    Rob Crawford (8578d9)

  35. “Three men have been arrested in the death of the youth, who had recently become a father and dreamed of playing football for USC and the NFL.”

    No word that he was a husband or breadwinner and highly doubtful that he was if he was living with his guardian. I would not call him a father but a sperm donor … or worse. A father takes on the responsibility to raise his children and he does not become one unless he can take on that responsibility. A breeding pair does not a father and a mother make. On the farm, when two animals breed the farmer will raise the calf or the colt. In the ghetto, there’s no farmer and the kid is left to become feral.

    nk (c87736)

  36. If you’re going to make such a stupid generalization and give men so much importance that everything else[!] is secondary, I’m going to respond just as I did, with mockery.

    Another straw man. Are you really this lacking in a basic understanding of argument logic?

    Steverino (e00589)

  37. “Didn’t your father, grandfather, a neighbor, or a family friend have any positive influence on your understanding of what it means to be male?”
    WTF?
    What exactly does it mean to be a male? Please explain. Both of my parents had an influence on me, positive and negative which is par for the course, but they taught me a lot. I responded to simplistic post entitled “it’s the Fathers. stupid.” No, it’s not. It’s a lot of things.

    blah (fb88b3)

  38. No, it’s not.

    Yes, it is. You love links,right? So click on the one in my #18 and refute what you find there.

    Pablo (99243e)

  39. Good stuff, Pablo.
    Unfortunately, “Facts to a Liberal, are like Kryptonite to Superman” applies. It’ll be like water off a ducks’ back.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  40. What exactly does it mean to be a male?

    Gender confusion as well.

    Read a damn book!

    daleyrocks (906622)

  41. I responded to simplistic post entitled “it’s the Fathers. stupid.” No, it’s not. It’s a lot of things.

    Uh, yeah. It is lots of things. But when you remove fathers from the lives of children, you’ve removed something important.

    Using your own style of argument against you — are you saying that fathers contribute nothing to the lives of their children?

    Rob Crawford (8578d9)

  42. “What exactly does it mean to be a male?”

    Another glaring failure of education, formal and informal, in Post-modern America.

    Yah gotta love it!

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  43. “What exactly does it mean to be a male?”

    Maybe blah has never seen people naked.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  44. “David has high self esteem”

    And how do you suppose I acquired it, Mike?

    Gov’t program?

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  45. From the site linked to in #18

    Over 300 fathers commit suicide every month in the U.S. alone, and over 1,500 worldwide, as a result of the vicious and unethical treatment doled out by family “courts”

    That’s just hilarious. And I didn’t say there was no relation, but “correlation is not causation” Look it up. And again

    Restraining Orders
    No law has been so misused to subvert the rights of any class of people since slavery. The minority radical feminists and their allies have wreaked havoc on families and children for the emotional and financial self-interests of women.

    Yeah, right.
    Violence Against Women in the United States

    blah (fb88b3)

  46. It will end when the government ends welfare and begins treating minority fathers for their true worth. Under the current system, the mother makes more money if the father isn’t around. A tragic mistake which has nueter the minority male and their society.

    Bob Fowler (1b840e)

  47. “What exactly does it mean to be a male?”
    Another glaring failure of education, formal and informal, in Post-modern America”

    No, tell me drew. What does it mean… to you.
    Champagne or Budweiser? Caviar or Cheetoz? A Glock or a Louisville Slugger? Treatin’ the little lady like a princess or a whore?

    blah (fb88b3)

  48. “It will end when the government ends welfare and begins treating minority fathers for their true worth. ”

    This is it. I’m done.
    Pat, your playpen has gone beyond parody.

    blah (fb88b3)

  49. Interesting that blah chose to focus on from that link has essentially nothing to do with the topic of this post, ignoring all the statistics that were directly relevant.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  50. That was hilarious, blah, for it is you who are beyond parody.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  51. That’s just hilarious.

    It’s funny how many of your posts are classic examples of fallacies, like
    Appeal to Ridicule.

    Examples of Appeal to Ridicule

    “Sure my worthy opponent claims that we should lower tuition, but that is just laughable.”

    “Support the ERA? Sure, when the women start paying for the drinks! Hah! Hah!”

    “Those wacky conservatives! They think a strong military is the key to peace!”

    I think you almost certainly are some wacked out feminist activist type. You have all the characteristics in how you deal with substantive questions.

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  52. Right, blah. Get the full skinny on gender issues from NOW. Fair and balanced.

    This is it. I’m done.

    Promise? Usually that means another wave of blather is coming. But if you promise to go away, I’ll give you something to think about. Try the first link on this page: Women are Just as Likely as Men to Commit Domestic Violence…

    You’ll find it to be a CDC study published earlier this year in the American Journal of Public Health. Sure, that’s not as authoritative as the NOW website (snicker), but there you go. Bye!

    Pablo (99243e)

  53. Oh, btw, that site linked in #18 is run by a friend of mine, a very successful businessman with no history of violence or criminal conduct whatsoever, who hasn’t seen his two beautiful daughters outside a supervised visitation center (for 2 hours a week) in two years. Why? His ex says she’s afraid (booga booga) and the judge doesn’t like his attitude. You see, he’s stuck on the idea that he has rights such as due process and equality in the eyes of the law and he has a bad habit of bringing such things to the judge’s attention.

    Pablo (99243e)

  54. Pablo, your link… wow.
    Self-righteous “real” men are now whining pussies. Someone call Harvey Mansfield! Someone call the Village People!
    You fucking idiots. Whining dimwits

    blah (fb88b3)

  55. This is it. I’m done.

    Yes enough straw man arguments for this thread – i.e. forcing any conservative argument into some cretinous feminist/PC template. I’ll wait for the next thread and start over.

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  56. Post 54:

    Looks like you’re out of straw man arguments.

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  57. See? I knew you weren’t leaving, liar.

    Pablo (99243e)

  58. I’m a third of the way through Clarence Thomas’ book and agree that a strong male figure in the home can certainly turn the tide in young men’s lives – but then that is just common sense.

    The vicious cycle keeps perpetuating itself – young men who have no sense of purpose outside of themselves satiate their base needs just to feel ‘alive’ or have something to do and girls who have no sense of self-worth are more than willing to objectify themselves and end up pregnant. Their fantasy of being a mommy and having someone to love get fulfilled but more often than not are not the stuff that dreams are made of, and by the time the baby arrives, the sperm donor is a distant memory who has moved on to some other desperate female…and so it most sadly, goes.

    Until its addressed as a moral issue – not an economic one, it will continue its ugly debasement of certain segments of society.

    Dana (fd88d5)

  59. My mockery cannot match the simplistic “template” of the original post, Gerald. I thought I made that clear a while ago.

    blah (fb88b3)

  60. “See? I knew you weren’t leaving, liar.”

    yeah.

    blah (fb88b3)

  61. Oh wait. Having reconsidered the content of your #54, you’ll probably be leaving shortly. Or should I say “shown the door”.

    Bye!

    Pablo (99243e)

  62. Self-righteous “real” men are now whining pussies.

    BTW, before you get bounced, who are the “whining pussies”? The CDC? The AJPH? Because the methodology of the study was to interview people and ask them about their own behavior. So the people who reported violence by women were largely the women who committed it.

    But I guess domestic violence doesn’t matter unless men are doing it. My only question is: Do they have to be white for it to matter?

    Pablo (99243e)

  63. Blah,
    One of the things about a site like this is your posts are your currency.So:posts that say something profound or even clever make it more likely people will read and scrutinize other posts.I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of symbolic(Boolean) logic,but many of your posts are content free.
    And BOb Fowler,the biggest decrease in the unwed mothe reate came post depo provera being’legalized’.(It had been used as a chemical castration for MR females in a sub rosa use for decades.(Source;my father).
    I finished my training in a GM town that had a terrible black underclasss problem.When we had an in service on Norplant-an implantable contraceptive,sosmeone asked the OB-=Gyn chief what were the indications for using it.Answer:”If they have an arm.”
    And before the Fuzzies out there start screaming racism,our feelings were:unwed Mom with two kids= the end of their chances at a decent life.

    Patrick,I’ll assume most of your readers have heard of Robert Heinlein.In one of his later books,he postulated certain areas of the cities were ‘police free zones’.When we reach that time,God help this country.
    Patrick,
    Happy new year,and keep the anniversary homages to your father .Reminds me of mine when you do

    corwin (8509ef)

  64. Thank goodness we have a commenter like blah to talk some reason into the louts around here, myself included. Otherwise, this place could get seriously out of hand. Heh!

    daleyrocks (906622)

  65. ROFL, daleyrocks.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  66. Pablo, your link… wow.
    Self-righteous “real” men are now whining pussies. Someone call Harvey Mansfield! Someone call the Village People!
    You fucking idiots. Whining dimwits

    Comment by blah — 12/26/2007 @ 3:10 pm

    It’s always so oddly…satisfying to see people on the wrong side of an argument lose their tempers; it’s their tacit admission that they’ve lost the argument as well.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  67. Actually, no one, its what happens when even blah can’t puke up a link.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  68. “My mockery cannot match …..”

    that’s okay, your “reasoned discourse” can’t match that of other posters here either.
    given what little i’ve seen of you, i’d suggest you stick with tried and true sort of posts, such as:

    “I know you are, but what am I?”
    “I’m rubber and you’re glue,….”

    and, if you still find those to be a bit much for your use, i’m sure you can reach this level with a stretch:
    “Neener Neener Poopy Head! PHFTBBBBBBBBBBB!”

    just wipe the drool off your screen before you hit send. %-)

    redc1c4 (39c24a)

  69. My mockery cannot match the simplistic “template” of the original post, Gerald.

    For the sake of argument, if there is something simplistic about it, it at least has a valid and indisputable idea behind it – that children, especially boys, do better when there’s a father around. They’re more likely to stay out of trouble, stay in school etc. There’s a number of studies about that.

    Most of what you say is several levels below simplistic, such as post 14. It’s devoid of anything resembling logical discourse. What you say is often not simplistic. It’s more like psychotic. You seem to have some emotional problem with men.

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  70. “The Clarence Thomas book should have been in every teenager’s Christmas stocking.”

    -Mike K

    That’s like me saying the collected works of Noam Chomsky should have been under every teenager’s Christmas tree.

    If I want listen to some smarmy asshole dish out folksy wisdom, I’ll read a Zig Ziglar book.

    Leviticus (2902c4)

  71. Levi,

    Don’t take offense when I tell you, using the word “smarmy” to refer to Thomas labels you as ignorant about the man.

    Patterico (c89d05)

  72. Mr Ehrenstein wrote:

    My gorge rises at the notion of a “positive male role model.” Never had one and I turned out spendidly.

    Did you? I won’t take the cheap shot that is obviously available, and I’ll assume that you are absolutely correct. Why? Because I didn’t have thet “positive male role model” either, in that my father was gone by the time I hit the third grade and my mother never remarried.

    But that makes us exceptions to the rule, Mr Ehrenstein. While there are going to be people who turn out fine even when they had lousy (or no) parents, and people with great parents who still turn out to be scumbags, the odds do not run in those directions.

    Dana (3e4784)

  73. “Positive male role model” is only part of a father’s job. Kids need food, clothes, a home, love, security, discipline, regular bedtimes, baths, school, homework, birthday presents, walks, little league games, haircuts, trimmed fingernails, songs, jokes, bedtime stories, slingshots, trips to the zoo and to the museum, curfews, their breath and pockets checked for cigarettes, drugs and booze, a dog, playdates with other good kids, bubblegum … which I say are more important and have more of an impact on how the child will grow up.

    nk (c87736)

  74. Did you ever notice that women debate the need for Fathers, but Men never debate the need for Mothers? (The obvious bilogical argument aside of course.)
    What does that mean?

    paul srom fl (47918a)

  75. Dunno, maybe fathers are like his imaginary Marines to David.

    He only relates to things he has sex with.

    Techie (366a7b)

  76. Beacuse once fucked women, knocked up and the consequences delivered, women are of no further value — save as servants.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  77. Because liberals think blacks cannot be held up to the same standards as whites, and so all kinds of excuses are made for them, and they are never expected to rise above. It also makes them stay close to the liberal plantation, voting for rice and beans from mas’sah. Meanwhile, standards have been lowered for whites, as so to shrink the divide, lest it become obvious that liberal approaches to race have failed.

    And David, have you ever stopped to think that maybe one reason why you are a whiny socialist homosexual is because you didn’t have that male role model?

    Mr. Obvious (d3fe32)

  78. DE: My gorge rises at the notion of a “positive male role model.” Never had one and I turned out spendidly.

    My gorge rises at the idea of government entitlements for poor people. I grew up poor and never took government money and I turned out splendidly.

    spongeworthy (9b4e06)

  79. My gorge rises at the notion of a “positive male role model.” Never had one and I turned out spendidly

    David, I know people who have smoked like chimneys, imbibed regularly, eatten fatty foods and never had any serious health problem.

    Does that mean we ignore or dismiss the general value for the majority of us NOT do engage in those behaviors?

    It’s not just dads that are important but the a child does better with BOTH a mother and father, married, in the house together. Can kids turn out well coming from single parenting households or even from dysfunctional households? Sure, but the odds are not as great.

    Darleen (187edc)

  80. NK

    You just made a partial list of postive parental activities…which is part of the positive role models that conscientious men and women engage in.

    Darleen (187edc)

  81. Pablo

    Yes, men and women are about equally responsible for initiating “dv” against each other.

    So, what qualifies as “domestic violence”?

    In CA misdemeanor dv can be a slap or shove or even destroying the property of the other during an argument (like smashing the windshield of your spouse’s car or pulling the telephone out of the wall so the spouse cannot call the police).

    However, let’s take a peek at intimate partner murder shall we?

    Male murder victim? 3 chances in 100 he was murdered by wife/girlfriend/ex

    Female murder victim? 1 chance in 3 she was murdered by her husband/boyfriend/ex

    Darleen (187edc)

  82. I thought so too, Darleen, I just didn’t want what a father does to be lost in the nebulous “positive male role model” in this discussion. It’s not important that children grow up to be clones of their parents. It is, in my opinion, most important that they know that they are loved and that they learn to love — their parents but more importantly their children.

    nk (c87736)

  83. It is, in my opinion, most important that they know that they are loved and that they learn to love — their parents but more importantly their children.

    Well said, by both nk and Darleen. TIME SPENT with the child, whatever you’re doing (as long as it’s not immoral), is the best possible way to let the child know you love him or her and one of the best of the many ways to be a role model.

    It’s a bit hard to make a child understand that he or she is loved and valued when your constant absence, if you clearly have a choice to be present instead (and children are keen observers and know the difference between work obligations etc. and parental neglect), screams “you’re not important to me.”

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  84. nk, I’ll add this to what you have to say:

    The most important thing daughters can learn from their fathers is how a man should treat a woman. A man who loves, respects, and honors his wife will show his daughter how she should be treated by the men in her life. A son will learn how to treat women from his father, too.

    Both sons and daughters will learn other things from their fathers (and mothers), to be sure. But how they react to the opposite sex in adulthood is learned from their parents relationship.

    Steverino (e00589)

  85. Steverino #83,

    I’m taking the Fifth on that one. 😉 I will brag, slightly, that before Christmas, my daughter asked me to personally deliver her letter to Santa Claus at the North Pole. She assured me, “I will take care of momma”.

    nk (c87736)

  86. “It’s not just dads that are important but the a child does better with BOTH a mother and father, married, in the house together.”

    Just keep saying that to yourself over and over and over and over, Darleen.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  87. nk, I’m not sure you have anything brag about. Your daughter wants to send you to the North Pole and keep your wife at home. :)

    Steverino (e00589)

  88. Steverino,

    I really didn’t want to go there … but if there is a wife out there who thinks she has found the perfect husband or at least one who is as good as her father I have not met her. 😉

    nk (c87736)

  89. “It’s not just dads that are important but the a child does better with BOTH a mother and father, married, in the house together.”

    Just keep saying that to yourself over and over and over and over, Darleen.

    Wow.
    David, what Darleen and others said about two parents present in the lives of children being better, as a general rule, for children, is so self evident, in spite of the fact that your experience may be one of the happy exceptions to the general rule, makes me wonder about your angry and sarcastic responses to people stating this simple fact.

    Many times people who are this angry (you actually want to throw up about the very idea of a postive male role model???) about this subject have some kind of lack or hurt in their own past that they’re resenting or haven’t moved past. Or if I misunderstand the reason in your case, why the anger and bitterness?

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  90. Beacuse once fucked women, knocked up and the consequences delivered, women are of no further value — save as servants.

    You didn’t turn out splendidly, David. You are deeply damaged.

    Pablo (99243e)

  91. The Black Community is generally satisfied with this horrible state of affairs. You certainly don’t see any organization being done to combat it. At every turn when police enforcement against gangs is offered, the Black Community rises as one and cries racism. Which is telling since police enforcement against gangs is the only measure that will stop the killing NOW.

    Conclusion: the Black Community has come to a consensus decision that they prefer the status quo.

    It has many advantages: a street army/militia operating with total ruthless efficiency to keep out rival Mexican gangs and White gentrifiers. Both of whom are threats to Black control of neighborhoods. I am not unsympathetic to the idea that Blacks want to maintain their presence in historic Black communities.

    The other advantage is of course in thuggery. In this system, thugs choosing the thug life have a huge advantage over say, plumbers, carpenters, and other working men. Rappers routinely paint Black women as choosing the hardest hard boy around, based on money and thuggery. Given that the illegitimacy rate in Black urban neighborhoods is 90% (70% nationwide) they have a point.

    Black women seem to have made a strategic choice in the environment of thuggery for the hardest thugs, three different children by three different fathers not uncommon. While welfare policies and general disregard for fathers has made this worse, IMHO the Black Community’s embrace of a Serbian style militia is what is driving that.

    And until there is a consensus change in attitude among the Black Community nothing will really change.

    Jim Rockford (e09923)

  92. Mr Ehrenstein is trying to justify himself to himself. The repetition indicates he is failing, as does the escalation. All he wants is to be told what a bad widda boy he really is, and who am I not to oblige?

    David, you are a very bad boy. We are all shocked, shocked I say, at your bad boyness – naughty, naughty, shame, shame – and we scornfully rebuke you. Enjoy. Not much to live for, tho, is it?

    ras (fc54bb)

  93. The Black Community is generally satisfied with this horrible state of affairs.

    And Pontius Pilate washed his hands….

    I think you badly misread the black community.

    voice of reason (10af7e)

  94. Go to David’s website. He is a gay socialist Hollywood hanger-on artist. Think of that when he writes about how his dad wasn’t around and he turned out fine. He is in the December of his life and managed to never make the basic human/social connection that we are all programmed for.

    And yes, David is a very angry person. But he has spent too many years rationalizing his screwed up life to change anything now.

    Mr. Obvious (d3fe32)

  95. VOR, he read the black community perfectly. Thankfully there is a tiny awakening.

    Mr. Obvious (d3fe32)

  96. The black community? Well, then….

    ras (fc54bb)

  97. Mr. Obvious,

    All David has left is revenge against his Dad, his Mom, society. Boy, he’s sure gonna punish them by rejecting their values.

    Easy rule of thumb: a person’s default attitude toward others – be it love or contempt or bewilderment or whatever – is an accurate reflection of their attitude toward their own self. David hurts a lot and doesn’t even realize it’s self-inflicted.

    ras (fc54bb)

  98. “Or if I misunderstand the reason in your case, why the anger and bitterness?

    Beacuse I’m not a Republicanm I must be angry and bitter.

    The logic behind this is absolutely unassailable.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  99. Mr. Obvious,

    Ah yes. An anonymous person makes a statement with no supporting proof and you accept it as gospel because you like the opinion. Gotta love the internet.

    voice of reason (10af7e)

  100. “He is in the December of his life and managed to never make the basic human/social connection that we are all programmed for.”

    Really? My lover and I have been together since 1971.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  101. Mr. Obvious #93:

    That’s uncalled for. Just too personal and nasty. Let’s get off the personal attacks, please.

    Patterico (8317c5)

  102. Poor David. Poor, poor David. All he has left is to condemn others, no matter how far he must twist their words to do so. That’s not much live on.

    ras (fc54bb)


  103. Beacuse I’m not a Republicanm I must be angry and bitter.

    The logic behind this is absolutely unassailable.

    Comment by David Ehrenstein — 12/27/2007 @ 2:39 pm

    All he has left is to condemn others, no matter how far he must twist their words to do so.
    Comment by ras — 12/27/2007 @ 2:46 pm

    Yes, he did twist my words, and others’ words on this thread too. Since he seems like an intelligent man he knows full well that it wasn’t because he’s “not a Republican” that I said he was angry and bitter, it was the angry, sarcastic, sometimes very obscenely worded responses to others on this thread.

    Sir, if you choose not to respond substantively to a civilly worded question about the source of your, yes, anger and bitterness, at least you could respond with honesty.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  104. I’d be happy to respond to someone with an actual name.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  105. Oh, I do have an actual name. :)

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  106. And you actual name would be. . . .?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  107. Sorry. I know you feel comfortable giving your (I think) real name on the Internet but being a woman, I do not. Nothing personal. Call me Jane in this thread if you like, as in Jane Doe.

    Anyway, you can respond to my original question or not, as you prefer, or explain why your responses above weren’t angry or bitter. They sure seemed so, to me, and others apparently too. Not trying to invade any private areas. But I do object to the apparently dishonest characterization of my words, in your comment # 97.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  108. Of course it’s personal. You characterize my remarks as “angry and bitter” without any explanation as to why and expect me to justify what you allege as “anger and bitterness.”

    “I do object to the apparently dishonest characterization of my words, in your comment # 97.”

    Who, praytell, is being dishonest?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  109. “I know you feel comfortable giving your (I think) real name on the Internet but being a woman, I do not. “

    No guts, no glory. And a quick “Google” search will reveal the truth of my name, history and reputation. I’ve even got a Wikipedia entry that someone cobbled together.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  110. David, between your strawmen and the projection, is there anything left?

    SPQR (26be8b)

  111. *sigh*

    Is what not personal? My not giving you my name, as I said, or the fact that I called your words angry and bitter, as you said? Please, try to be honest in your responses from now on, as you haven’t been thus far.

    Here are three of your quotes in this thread:

    My gorge rises at the notion of a “positive male role model.”

    Beacuse once fucked women, knocked up and the consequences delivered, women are of no further value — save as servants.

    Just keep saying that to yourself over and over and over and over, Darleen. (emphasis added)

    Those sound angry, sarcastic and bitter to me. Apparently they seemed so to others too. And the last one was in response to a simple statement by Darleen that said that even though people can turn out fine with one parent in the home, it’s better to have two.

    I asked about why these types of statements made you angry. If you choose not to answer, that’s certainly your prerogative. However, please don’t mischaracterize my words and accuse me of getting “personal” because I ask why angry posts sound angry. I’m beginning to wonder if this is a diversion tactic to avoid answering the question, similar to wanting my real name in exchange for answering a civilly worded question on a blog.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  112. No guts, no glory.

    I’m not interested in “glory,” as you put it. And the more that a person, who is a stranger to me, insists on getting my name on the Internet, the more cautious I get. Just so you know. :)

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  113. Gotta pop out for a bit and will check back later.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  114. “Those sound angry, sarcastic and bitter to me. Apparently they seemed so to others too.”

    Words on a computer screen can’t always convey the precise sentiment with which they were composed. “Sarcastic” I grant you, but a joyous sarcasm.

    “And the last one was in response to a simple statement by Darleen that said that even though people can turn out fine with one parent in the home, it’s better to have two.”

    Darleen knows me from another forum dear. As for what I said, I hold two it. The “children need a mother and father” (of different sexes needless to say) meme is mouthed endlessly. Lyle and Eric Zmenendez had a mother and a father — and look how splendidly they turned out. Jeffrey Dahmer as well. Shall I go on?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  115. Trolls are lot like kids who cut themselves for attention, aren’t they? How can we who do not hate ourselves hope to empathize?

    ras (fc54bb)

  116. Mr Ehrenstein wrote:

    “It’s not just dads that are important but the a child does better with BOTH a mother and father, married, in the house together.” (Darleen)

    Just keep saying that to yourself over and over and over and over, Darleen.

    And you would argue differently?

    In our modern society’s brilliance, we have somehow decided, to the point at which that societal decision has influenced Mr Ehrenstein, that the wisdom and experience of every culture which has preceeded this one is just so much pyrite.

    Human societies set up morés and norms and cultural restrictions which were designed to insure that children were reared in settings with both parents, because it took both parents to support children and socialize them into their own responsibilities as they grew into adults. Somehow, some way, it seemed to work, because we have been fruitful and multiplied and filled the earth.

    But now, now, we have become just so much wiser than our ancestors, and so much smarter than God, that we can change all of the rules and do things just so much better! That’s why we get liberal bloggers and very much not a parent Amanda Marcotte writing, on a thread about the pregnancy of 16-year-old Jamie Spears:

    I want to make it extremely clear that I don’t actually think there’s a damn thing wrong with 16-year-olds having sex with 19-year-olds, by any stretch of the imagination,

    because today’s American liberals are just so much smarter than all of history. And that’s why we get Mr Ehrenstein, who if his posted biography is to be believed, isn’t a parent and probably never will be, telling the rest of us that the millenia-old model of child-rearing is just bovine feces.

    Well, we’ve got a great laboratory for the New Way; it’s called Philadelphia, where most of the black children are born to unwed mothers, and most of the black children grow up in homes without a father around. Black males drop out of high school in prodigious rates in the City of Brotherly Love, by the time that they are thirty the majority have at least police records if not actual felony convictions, they are slaughtering each other at prodigious rates, and the male role model of choice is the local drug dealer, who has a lot of money, all the women he wants, and gets street cred from being a player and a thug.

    Mr Ehrenstein wrote:

    Lyle and Eric Zmenendez had a mother and a father — and look how splendidly they turned out. Jeffrey Dahmer as well. Shall I go on?

    Yeah, do go on, Mr Ehrenstein. The fact that you know their names proves that they are the exceptions to the rule, the ones we hear about individually, because their crimes are shocking. But when another black man gets bumped off in Philadelphia, The Philadelphia Inquirer reports the statistic and maybe the name, but the victims are forgotten unless they don’t fit the profile, unless they are exceptional in some way. Most of the victims aren’t remembered individually, because we just plain expect young black men growing up in Philadelphia to get shot.

    Inner-city Philadelphia is the proof of Mr Ehrenstein’s argument. Anyone here want an apartment on Broad Street?

    Dana (556f76)

  117. Dana, logical fallacies are all that David has left.

    That and cartoonish caricatures.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  118. There may be an explanation to Mr Ehrenstein’s position. He wrote:

    Beacuse once fucked women, knocked up and the consequences delivered, women are of no further value — save as servants.

    And he also wrote:

    My lover and I have been together since 1971.

    We understand that you are gay, and that your lover is a man, but are you so unable to understand heterosexuals that it does not occur to you that heterosexual men might not see heterosexual women as simply disposable, save for their value as servants, after they’ve given birth?

    Dana (556f76)

  119. …logical fallacies are all that David has left.

    But if he agreed w/the norms, he wouldn’t be able to declare himself morally superior and salve his ego. And that’s more important to him.

    No one capable of speech is so obtuse as to honestly make the kinds of logical mistakes Angry David revels in, so there must be some other reason that he needs to do so. It ain’t about what it’s about, and if the rest of us wish to deal with the problems – not just this Angry David, but all the Angry Davids together – we need to address the real reasons that they act the way they do, not the silly ones that they give as excuses.

    ras (fc54bb)

  120. “How can we who do not hate ourselves hope to empathize?”

    How do we know you don’t hate yourself?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  121. “And you would argue differently?”

    I would argue that there’s no simple “one size fits all” formula to child-rearing.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  122. “And that’s why we get Mr Ehrenstein, who if his posted biography is to be believed, isn’t a parent and probably never will be, telling the rest of us that the millenia-old model of child-rearing is just bovine feces.”

    How vivid.

    I think Amanda Marcotte is silly. And I think “Dr. Phill” — who approves of Mrs. Spears manifestly wanting child-rearing skills, is downright dangerous.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  123. “Inner-city Philadelphia is the proof of Mr Ehrenstein’s argument”

    Haven’t been to Philadelphia in years.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  124. “We understand that you are gay, and that your lover is a man, but are you so unable to understand heterosexuals that it does not occur to you that heterosexual men might not see heterosexual women as simply disposable, save for their value as servants, after they’ve given birth?”

    They might.

    But a great many don’t.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  125. And I love the implication that you “understand” me but that I can’t possibly “understand” you.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  126. Post Modernism, anyone?

    Another Drew (8018ee)


  127. Dana, logical fallacies are all that David has left.
    Comment by SPQR — 12/27/2007 @ 4:53 pm

    A few people have said that on this thread; sure seems like it.

    Whew! Several different types of fallacies on this thread alone, including but not limited to: appeal to ridicule (The “children need a mother and father” (of different sexes needless to say) meme is mouthed endlessly. ), and several instances of straw man argument (e.g. Lyle and Eric Zmenendez had a mother and a father — and look how splendidly they turned out. Jeffrey Dahmer as well. Shall I go on?).

    As Dana pointed out above, and no one has argued otherwise, there are exceptions, on the good side (e.g. David Ehrenstein) as well as on the bad side (e.g. Jeffrey, Lyle and Eric) to the general rule. This doesn’t mean that “the rule” (all other things being equal, children on average do better in life if they have two parents, both good role models, married and living in the home) still isn’t generally true.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  128. Apparently, cutting is an addiction that not every kid grows out of. Perhaps it’s the inability to distinguish insistence from argument that makes this so. There’s certainly a strong correlation.

    ras (fc54bb)

  129. Sorry, thought I included this as a hyperlink for David in case he wanted to see it:

    http://www.logicalfallacies.info/index.html

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  130. No, Mr Ehrenstein, read it again; I said that we understand one fact about you, one that you have posted on your own site.

    Further, I did not say that you couldn’t understand heterosexuals. Rather, I asked you a question wondering about your seeming inability to understand that some heterosexual men don’t see heterosexual women as simply disposable.

    In your website biography, your tell us that you are a writer; it seems to me that you need to prove that you are a reader at this point.

    Dana (556f76)

  131. Perhaps it’s the inability to distinguish insistence from argument that makes this so.
    Comment by ras — 12/27/2007 @ 6:23 pm

    :)

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  132. no one you know,

    The troll doesn’t want to acknowledge the diff between “actual” and “actuarial” because to do so would bring its emptiness too close to the spotlight.

    ras (fc54bb)

  133. Dana,

    One last comment before I gotta run: you are arguing beautifully; meanwhile, the the troll is insisting that the parrot is not dead.

    It ain’t about what it’s about. It’s about the troll’s need, in its meaningless life, to convince itself that it matters. The more it contradicts you, regardless of the strength of the arg at hand, the more it fills that need. You are not helping it because its embarrassingly simple logical fallacies are the excuse, not that cause.

    Anyway, like I said, gotta run. See you guys next time.

    ras (fc54bb)

  134. Night ras. You did great yourself. See you, and the rest of you guys, around. Goodnight all.

    no one you know (1ebbb1)

  135. Aftrer a hearty round of back-slapping, everyone leaves the room.

    Typical.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  136. “No, Mr Ehrenstein, read it again; I said that we understand one fact about you, one that you have posted on your own site.”

    You give no indication of understanding anything I’ve said, be it on my “own site” or elsewhere.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  137. “You didn’t turn out splendidly, David. You are deeply damaged.”

    On what basis do you come to that conclusion, “Pablo”? Di you read minds? See through walls? Are you a “psychic” like Sylvia Browne?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  138. How do we know you don’t hate yourself?

    That, aside from your self described splendidness, is something I can’t help but wonder about you, Dave. Does it not occur to you that someone so predisposed to making offhand, unfounded judgments might have a cracked egg or two in their own cupboard?

    Pablo (99243e)

  139. On what basis do you come to that conclusion, “Pablo”?

    I simply read your view of male-female relations, “David”.

    Pablo (99243e)

  140. As we can see the real problem with minority families in the US is that seasoned liberals like David both control the social services systems in the country (yes, I know you personally don’t work in a social services capacity) and have NO respect for traditional families. His mindset is the mindset that is destroying black and Native families. As much damage as they can do to white families, they do that do. Non-discriminatory family destruction, revenge for their own fouled up lives and morals.

    Mr. Obvious (7a2278)

  141. “I can’t help but wonder about you, Dave. “

    Oh sure you can.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  142. “As we can see the real problem with minority families in the US is that seasoned liberals like David both control the social services systems in the country (yes, I know you personally don’t work in a social services capacity) and have NO respect for traditional families. His mindset is the mindset that is destroying black and Native families. “

    Well I’m not a Native American, but I am black, so I suppose my very existence is doing much to destroy the black family by your lights.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  143. I’ll grant you that the details of your, well shall we say “issues” don’t have a terribly high priority on my list of things to think about. So yes, I can help it, except when I bother to consider you.

    Pablo (99243e)

  144. Well I’m not a Native American, but I am black,

    Funny, but I’ve always thought of you as a Jew.

    Pablo (99243e)

  145. It’s too bad that this discussion focused so much on ad hominem against David when the answer to his snide mockery of the nuclear family is so obvious. The parenting habits he mocks are those of the people of worth and substance who rule society and make it work, and always have and always will. The breeding habits he seems to approve of are those of a poverty-stricken, marginalized, disproportionately criminal, and fair to say despised, underclass which will always remain an underclass.

    nk (00c972)

  146. David E.,

    The large percentage of single parents in America worries me because I know it would be difficult (both financially and time-wise) to raise a child by myself. Setting aside the issue of whether the parents are gay or straight, don’t you think it’s better to have two parents?

    DRJ (09f144)

  147. So the fatherless Jewish gay red-diaper baby wishes he was black.

    My god, Freud would have a field day with you. I just pity you, personally. Impersonally, I despise what you stand for, what social policies you support, what politicians you vote for.

    Mr. Obvious (7a2278)

  148. “The parenting habits he mocks are those of the people of worth and substance who rule society and make it work, and always have and always will. The breeding habits he seems to approve of are those of a poverty-stricken, marginalized, disproportionately criminal, and fair to say despised, underclass which will always remain an underclass.”

    “Worth and substance” = white

    “poverty-stricken, marginalized, disproportionately criminal” = black

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  149. “Setting aside the issue of whether the parents are gay or straight, don’t you think it’s better to have two parents?”

    If you put it that way, sure.

    “So the fatherless Jewish gay red-diaper baby wishes he was black.”

    I was not raised fatherless or Jewish, and I AM black.

    “My god, Freud would have a field day with you.”

    You took the words right out of my keypad.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  150. Funny, you don’t look black?

    Another Drew (758608)

  151. Referencing the dictionary in #148:

    “Ehrenstein” = dung throwing, inconsistent, and hypocritical troll, who lives to irritate others. Best if ignored.

    Lurker (08319c)

  152. David #148,

    Why did I know that you’d go there? I have written what I have written.

    nk (c87736)

  153. So the fatherless Jewish gay red-diaper baby wishes he was black.

    More than wishes, Mr. Obvious. Sigh. (The dashing fair-haired individual is Gary McVey, and the dark-haired guy who could stand to lose some weight is me.)

    qdpsteve (cd214a)

  154. Here’s a nice, calming, matronly photo of Hillary Clinton to help ease all of Patterico’s commenters into a gentle night’s sleep. Pleasant dreams! :-)

    qdpsteve (cd214a)

  155. You know, David has been flinging poo but calling him gay, Jewish, wannabe-black, socialist, communist, red-diaper baby is not a counter-argument. It’s got nothing to do with his ideas such as they are.

    nk (c87736)

  156. Dear nk: David Ehrenstein has a sad and angry life, and he lives to stir people up. I think it makes him feel better. Check him out across the ‘tubes, and you’ll see what I mean.

    When called on being a jerk, he dons his triple threat victim Kevlar jacket: black, gay, and Jewish. Hell, he will even add that he has SO been a parent (helpful hint: don’t get him started!).

    Patterico will tell you that David Ehrenstein can be pleasant and polite. But he lives to play word games and thinks insulting others is fun. If you want to fight, have at and beware the potty language and insults. Poop spatters widely, after all.

    Ehrenstein can be insightful when the mood takes him, but many topics cause him to take leave of his 60s-infused senses.

    Lurker (08319c)

  157. Thank you, Lurker. But I am so sorry that Patterico in #11 tried to bring the subject to Clarence Thomas and we degenerated into attacks on David.

    nk (c87736)

  158. That is true. Just keep in mind that David Ehrenstein genuinely enjoys all the attention, good or otherwise.

    Even though you know who hates Thomas, I thought the book was very impressive. Patterico met Justice Thomas, I think.

    Still, as you say, it is much better to be positive, nu?

    Lurker (08319c)

  159. The LA Times wrote that the city pitted black against Latino. What bullshit?

    Alta Bob (ec51e1)

  160. I thought the book was very impressive. Patterico met Justice Thomas, I think.
    Comment by Lurker — 12/27/2007 @ 9:28 pm

    I think you’re right, he did.

    Yeah, am also a little sorry the conversation got distracted and off on tangents, cause Justice Thomas is an awesome man and it would have been great to see this thread be about him.

    And you’re right, the book was terrific. Epecially impressive was the part that went into detail about how Justice Thomas dealt with all the slander he was being subjected to at the time of the Anita Hill hearings. What strength of character. He’d not spoken so publicly of his day-to-day reaction before, as I recall. And his grandfather being a strong role model and father figure to him was of course a major theme of the book.

    I remember literally-and I do mean literally- jumping for joy when that close confirmation vote came in in 1991, because it vindicated him from what many people knew was slander, in addition to the fact of his qualifications. A personal hero of mine.

    no one you know (1f5ddb)

  161. Other than assuming that no black man on the face of the earth would have the last name of Ehrenstein, the rest of what I wrote was merely descriptive.

    Mr. Obvious (7a2278)


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