Patterico's Pontifications

12/19/2007

L.A. Times Smears Swift Vet Group

Filed under: Dog Trainer,General — Patterico @ 5:54 pm

Stephen Braun at the L.A. Times writes:

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth raised more than $25 million for media buys. Some of the money was donated in multimillion-dollar installments from reliable Republican fundraisers, including Texas businessmen T. Boone Pickens Jr. and Bob J. Perry. But last December, the group was fined almost $300,000 by the Federal Election Commission for exceeding spending limits and acting in concert with GOP campaign efforts.

Wrong.

Here is the December 13, 2006 Conciliation Agreement that sets forth the FEC’s findings (.pdf). In it, the FEC explicitly found that the Swift Vets did not act in concert with GOP campaign efforts, and they were not fined for any unlawful coordination with the GOP, because they did not engage in any such activities. Rather, the group was fined for failing to properly register as a PAC and follow rules applicable to PACs:

The Federal Election Commission (“Commission”) found reason to believe that Swiftboat Veterans and POWs for Truth (“SwiftVets”) violated 2 U.S.C. sections 433, 434, 441a(f), and 441b(a) of the Federal Election Campaign Act, as amended, (“the Act”) by failing to register as a political committee with the Commission, by failing to report contributions and expenditures as a political committee to the Commission, by knowingly accepting individual contributions in excess of $5,000, and by knowingly accepting corporate and/or union contributions. Following an investigation, the Commission concluded that Swiftvets did not unlawfully coordinate its activities with, or make excessive in-kind contributions to, any federal candidate or political party committee.

(Emphasis added.) That seems pretty clear.

Time for a correction.

Off goes the letter to the Readers’ Rep.

P.S. Not that it’s particularly relevant to the error, but the document also states that

the Commission has never alleged that the Swiftvets acted in knowing defiance of the law, or with the conscious recognition that their actions were prohibited by law, made no findings or conclusions that there were any knowing and willful violations of the law in connection with this matter, and, thus, does not challenge SwiftVets’ assertion of its good faith reliance on its understanding of the law.

I thought it important to include that finding in the post, lest someone come to the wrong conclusion about the meaning of the FEC’s findings.

96 Responses to “L.A. Times Smears Swift Vet Group”

  1. You can tell how powerful the Swift Boat influence was because they are still hated on the left. Kerry smeared all the soldiers who were in Vietnam and he is a hero. The Swift Boats vets told the truth and they are villains. Life in 2007 America.

    My brother-in-law was an 18-year-old rifleman in the same area where Kerry spent his 90 days. He saw no atrocities and, as a schoolteacher, is a natural Democrat voter. Guess who he voted for. I know another guy who was a Swift Boat skipper when Kerry was there and, while he doesn’t want to get involved, he knows who is telling the truth.

    Mike K (86bddb)

  2. The LAT, bringing “progressives” the news they want to hear. Up next: the triumph of socialist economics.

    ras (fc54bb)

  3. Your first mistake is expecting the LA Times to be accurate when it comes to enemies of the Democrats election to power. Swift Boat Vets for Truth were mortal enemies and they must be destroyed at all costs. I don’t expect to see a retraction on the part of the LA Times and if they eventually do make one they’ll bury it so far back in the paper that you’ll be lucky to find it with a search engine and a magnifying glass.

    airedale (925226)

  4. It should be noted that Stephen Braun is one of the “Chosen 3″ gatekeepers given access to John Kerry’s military records in an effort to lend credibility to Kerry’s claim that his records have been made “public”.

    Bias? Stephen Braun? Nah.

    Bingo (747f20)

  5. Nice catch.

    The oddest part about is that you can fairly pithily go after the Swift Vets for the substantial violations they were found to have committed, and yet the Times gets this sucker directly wrong. I don’t even see a potential good-faith misreading of the finding; this seems like reckless disregard for the truth.

    –JRM

    JRM (de6363)

  6. Precisely how did Kerry “smear(ed) all the soldiers who were in Vietnam” ?

    By opposing the war, of course.

    Can’t have that.

    Not allowed.

    THOUGHT CRIME NUMBER ONE!!!!!

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  7. No, David, he smeared them by lying about what the soldiers were doing over there, making up stories about atrocities and crimes that never happened.

    PatHMV (0e077d)

  8. Precisely how did Kerry “smear(ed) all the soldiers who were in Vietnam” ?

    Kerry’s 1971 testimony before Congress said that American soldiers in Vietnam had “raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape[d] wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war . . . .”

    NYC 3L (85fd98)

  9. THOUGHT CRIME NUMBER ONE!!!!!

    David, seriously, it’s nice that you take so much time to entertain everyone here so much– every night, putting on the booga-booga fright suit and wig and such– but you might want to look into an upgrade, you know? It’s to the point that we can see the zipper in back, the lining, everything.

    Just a thought David. Oh, and again, Merry Christmas. :-)

    qdpsteve (cd214a)

  10. You know, Ehrenstein, at this time your act really looks like nothing more than you trying real hard to convince yourself.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  11. It really is ridicules when the only way you can safely participate in exercising your freedom of speech during an election is to hire election attorneys.
    DKK

    LifeTrek (201637)

  12. Precisely how did Kerry “smear(ed) all the soldiers who were in Vietnam”?

    This good enough for starters David?

    “He tells us that we have ‘created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who have returned with a sense of anger.’”

    William F. Buckley, Commencement Address, United States Military Academy, West Point NY, June 8, 1971
    http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/wfb200402040837.asp

    By the way, if you haven’t yet read the text of Buckley’s address, you’re missing out on a splendid bit of commentary on the Vietnam era.

    Bingo (747f20)

  13. “No, David, he smeared them by lying about what the soldiers were doing over there, making up stories about atrocities and crimes that never happened.”

    Oh yes. Our soldiers wers purer than the driven snow. That whole My Lai busienss was just a clerical error, right?

    Or maybe it was something the Evil Goerge Soros made up.

    Never happened. Right folks?

    We never destroyed entire villages and killed all their inhabitants. NoSireeBob!

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  14. Kerry’s 1971 testimony before Congress said that American soldiers in Vietnam had “raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape[d] wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war . . . .”

    Yep.

    But that can’t be said. Ever.

    THOUGHT CRIME !!!!!

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  15. Actually, David, it is entirely possible that many of these things did happen…the problem is that Kerry said he witnessed these things…and did nothing….and never stopped it from happening….and didn’t report the actions to a superior…

    All in violation of the UCMJ, and of his oath as an officer.

    But, of course, you ignore that, don’t you???

    I thank God every day that there are people like me out there to defend your right to say the really stupid things you say….

    reff (99666d)

  16. It’s not a matter of whether it “can’t be said.” It can, and was, said. But your query was “how did Kerry smear(ed) all the soldiers who were in Vietnam?” That is how. Ironically enough, had it not been said, there’s a good chance the Swift Vets would never have come into existence, and Kerry would have been sitting in the White House now.

    NYC 3L (85fd98)

  17. This Erenstein{[sic]-deliberate, it’s a lack of respect thing} guy has told us about attending some high school in NYC, too bad the dude didn’t continue his schoolin’…woulda been helpful trying to keep up with this internet thingy.

    PC14 (f74534)

  18. “Actually, David, it is entirely possible that many of these things did happen”

    YA THINK??!!!!!

    “the problem is that Kerry said he witnessed these things…and did nothing….and never stopped it from happening….and didn’t report the actions to a superior…”

    and get fragged.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  19. Hoo boy, Dave’s hot under the collar tonight!

    Let’s have some fun and ratch up his volume level a little bit more.

    qdpsteve (cd214a)

  20. TOP FIVE REASONS DAVID E.’S UPSET TONIGHT

    5. Howard Dean finally went and got the restraining order against David that he’s been threatening about for the last five years

    4. Fishnet Christmas stockings no longer available at David’s favorite holiday store

    3. Al Gore told David the coal he’s most likely to receive from Santa this year most likely isn’t carbon-neutral

    2. David’s husband scratched his favorite Ted Nugent Christmas CD

    1. The National Enquirer’s got the goods on David’s favorite son.

    qdpsteve (cd214a)

  21. Why would he have gotten fragged? Was nearly all of the soldiers/sailors/Marines (full disclosure: Semper Fi!) involved in these actions? Why weren’t there more media investigations into all of these events? Surely, with the immortal Walter Cronkite leading the charge, we would have had Pulitizer after Oscar given for the thousands of productions that would have resulted in all these events….

    Or, was Kerry just a coward, afraid to face the men he had so falsely accused???

    reff (99666d)

  22. David is out of his meds so be kind. Kerry needed the lies about Vietnam vets to run for the Congressional District in Mass. He also committed treason by negotiating with the North Vietnamese in Paris while holding a reserve commission in the US Navy. I think he was given a less-than-honorable discharge for that action and that is why we will never see his records. That is why his silver star citation is dated in the Reagan Administration

    Mike K (86bddb)

  23. Kerry be fragged? How could that be? He claimed that all of his crew loved him.

    I think you are getting your talking points confused again David.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  24. The Swift Boat Vets are an actual example of “speaking truth to power”—i.e. the standard bearer of the Dems in 2004 got called out on some earlier falsehoods. And the left, which loves to “speak truth to power” has never quite gotten over it.

    Well tough noogies—if your idol (or candidate) has feet of clay, somebody’s going to comment on his pottery shoes. As I believe one of the Clintonista operatives said earlier this month, “Politics ain’t beanbag”–this justifying the Clinton campaign staff’s smearing of Obama.

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  25. David E. wrote:
    “the problem is that Kerry said he witnessed these things…and did nothing….and never stopped it from happening….and didn’t report the actions to a superior…”

    and get fragged.

    Kerry fled Vietnam nearly 40 years ago and never been in any danger of being fragged. Why hasn’t Kerry reported these “crimes” he allegedly witnessed in the past 40 years? In 1971, the Swiftboater John O’Neil (who wrote “Unfit for Command”) debated Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show. On the Show, O’Neil challenged Kerry to name these war crimes that Kerry witnessed. Kerry appeared flustered and was unable to name any.

    Kerry is a liar to the very core of his soul.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  26. David Ehrenstein

    Why hasn’t Kerry collected his million bucks from Pickens yet? The weasel said he had proof against the Swift Boat Vets and then he went into a deep hidey-hole. Makes him seem rather queerish. It must suck having to defend the likes of Kerry…like being a Johnny Sutton defender.

    j curtis (8bcca6)

  27. If I may inject a thought for David,

    David, My Lai was a blight upon the otherwise honorable service of some 2.6 million men. What you probably have never bothered to learn is what brought that ugly incident to a halt.

    Hugh Thompson Jr.

    From his obituary, “Early in the morning of March 16, 1968, Thompson, door-gunner Lawrence Colburn and crew chief Glenn Andreotta came upon U.S. ground troops killing Vietnamese civilians in and around the village of My Lai.”

    “They landed the helicopter in the line of fire between American troops and fleeing Vietnamese civilians and pointed their own guns at the U.S. soldiers to prevent more killings.”

    It was from the Troops themselves that you easily disparage that the massacre was halted!

    Calley was prosecuted and was pardoned, whether we agree with that or not. On the other hand, there has never been an investigation nor any prosecutions in the
    Hue Massacre, Tet of 68; More on the The Massacre at Hue

    One does not justify the other, but it does supply a little perspective.

    Kerry spent 4 months in country and in 1986 wrote an article claiming he never wanted anything to do with the war, he volunteered for Swiftboats because they were patrolling off shore.

    John Kerry, A War Remembered

    His 1971 “testimony” was absed upon “stories” told in what was called a “winter Soldier Investigation” which produced no “witnesses” prepared to sign affidavits or substantial information about those claims of atrocities when investigated by Naval Intelligence and Army CID.

    One “Witness” came forward during the 2004 campaign and signed an affidavit claiming he was pressured into lying about war crimes and atrocities by Kerry and others.

    For political gain, Kerry caused irreprable damage to the morale of Troops in Viet Nam and to our international reputation. Eventually, he even abandoned his anti-war pals and ran for office as a “War Hero” instead of a War protester.

    LewWaters (04da7d)

  28. Pickens changed the terms of his “offer” at the last minute — that’s why.

    Meanwhile at The Most Trusted Name in Newsiness:

    “and she’s told a close confidante that Edwards is the father of her baby!”

    While denying it to everyone else.

    The National Enquirer always seems to find “a close confidente” with every story to matter how important or trivial.

    Unnamed of course.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  29. Unnamed of course

    Hmmmm… sounds like the AP.

    Darleen (187edc)

  30. or the LA Times.

    So they must be credible…

    Scott Jacobs (425810)

  31. When the Swift Boat story cames out, the mainstream media and Kerry ignored it for at least a week. They thought if they didn’t respond it would go away.

    But that tactic failed because it gained traction on talk radio and the internet (where conservatives go for their news). By the time they responded, the story was rolling full steam ahead.

    Alta Bob (28f23e)

  32. Them goalposts got WHEELS, baby!

    PCachu (e072b7)

  33. David, you never answer a point, but always move to something else off the discussion…

    You are just a coward….and again, I thank God, and the U.S. Marines, that you have the protections of those two, and many others, to say the garbage you spit out here….

    “Semper Fi,” even if you don’t deserve it….God granted it to you, and the Corps will defend it…

    reff (bff229)

  34. “Linda Tripp” is a name, david.

    Pablo (99243e)

  35. The only danger of Kerry getting fragged is if Kerry was playing with live handgrenades like he played with a grenade launcher taking shrapnel in his butt for a round Kerry fired. Then, in utter chutzpah, Kerry demands a purple heart for his wound.

    PCD (09d6a8)

  36. Darleen,

    Hmmmm… sounds like the AP.

    Hey, “Jamil Hussein” is a name too! Granted, a false, made up name, but a name nonetheless.

    Pablo (99243e)

  37. “Semper Fi,” even if you don’t deserve it….God granted it to you, and the Corps will defend it…

    I’ve fucked more Marines than you have. (They’re all “bottoms” BTW.)

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  38. You stay classy, David.

    Pablo (99243e)

  39. Dignity. Always Dignity.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  40. Ah, that David E. – - – trying to make sure you’re never too respectable and mainstream.

    Bradley J. Fikes (cb60d8)

  41. Wow, David rears his true head.

    Techie (ed20d9)

  42. So, since you “f-ed” more Marines than I have, does that make you a slut?

    I’ve only made love to one….my wife, who is also a Marine…we met after her service…

    The amazing part is that you have no respect for the Marines you “f’ed”….

    And, yet, they will still risk their lives for you….

    reff (bff229)

  43. Kerry did not lie.

    “The Winter Soldier Investigation is not a mock trial. There will be no phony indictments; there will be no verdict against Uncle Sam,” William Crandall, a former infantry platoon leader in the Americal Division in Vietnam, said in the event’s introduction. “In these three days, over a hundred Vietnam veterans will present straightforward testimony – direct testimony – about acts which are war crimes under international law. Acts which these men have seen and participated in. Acts which are the inexorable result of national policy. The vets will testify in panels arranged by the combat units in which they fought so that it will be easy to see the policy of each division and thus the larger policy.”

    “We intend to show that the policies of Americal Division which inevitably resulted in My Lai were the policies of other Army and Marine Divisions as well. We intend to show that war crimes in Vietnam did not start in March 1968, or in the village of Son My or with one Lt. William Calley. We intend to indict those really responsible for My Lai, for Vietnam, for attempted genocide . . . We are here to bear witness not against America, but against those policy makers who are perverting America.”

    In a closing statement, Donald Duncan, a former Army Special Forces master sergeant, said “We have presented testimony for three days covering a wide range of war crimes. We have covered a period by actual firsthand testimony from 1963 to 1970 – seven years. We find: that in 1963, we were displacing population, we were murdering prisoners, we were turning prisoners over to somebody else to be tortured. We were committing murder then, and in 1970 we find nothing has changed. Every law of Land Warfare has been violated and been testified to here in the past three days. It has been done systematically, deliberately, and continuously. It has been done with the full knowledge of those who, in fact, make policy for this country. No active step has ever been taken to curtain those acts in Vietnam”

    And what ever happened to William Calley anyway?
    Not much

    There are still stories to be told

    blah (fb88b3)

  44. No, blah…Kerry did lie…because when asked specifically for things he witnessed, he could not bring up even one act….

    Even though his time there was “seared” into his mind….

    The difference between you, David, and the conservatives here on this and other blogs…we don’t have a problem with the truth….we have problems with the lies….

    reff (bff229)

  45. In the Winter Soldier “investigation”, one fraud after another falsely claimed to have been a combat soldier who witnessed atrocities, but many were never in the military, others never were in Vietnam, and more were in Vietnam but only in support roles and never saw combat.

    Of course, Kerry did more than defame, falsely portraying the American military as being “just as bad” if not worse than the Vietcong who were always and as a matter of policy committing acts of terror, Kerry also praised the leadership of North Vietnam and expressed support for them.

    pst314 (672ba2)

  46. Blah is citing the “Winter Soldier” investigation!
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

    Catch up with the news from 30 years ago. FYI blah, many of the “soldiers” who testified about Vietnam atrocities were not even soldiers or were military personal who had never served in Vietnam. Nobody was every able to verify any “atrocities” discussed at Winter Soldier.

    Blah, you have now earned the John Kerry “useful idiot” badge.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  47. The fact that leftists still cite the “Winter Soldier investigation” just serves to remind us that the left will always lie, and that it will continue to lie even when its lies have been exposed, hoping that by sheer repetition falsehood can drown out truth (not to mention the screams of the hundred million murdered by leftists.)

    pst314 (672ba2)

  48. David E. and blah illustrate the worst attributes of a Liberal. Their dogged determination to manure spread falsehoods to replace the truth.

    PCD (09d6a8)

  49. So, since you “f-ed” more Marines than I have, does that make you a slut?

    No, it makes me a “Top.”

    “I’ve only made love to one….my wife, who is also a Marine…we met after her service…”

    Mazel Tov!

    “The amazing part is that you have no respect for the Marines you “f’ed”….

    And, yet, they will still risk their lives for you….”

    Yeah sure, right.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  50. “The difference between you, David, and the conservatives here on this and other blogs…we don’t have a problem with the truth….”

    Becuase you regard the truth as something easily managed.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  51. Since Braun has all the Kerry documents he should be rushing to put together a piece showing the swift boaters lied and collect the million dollar prize from Boone Pickens.

    Kerry wrote Pickens more than a month ago saying he was prepared to prove the swift boaters lied. John, where’s your proof? You said you have proof beyond any reasonable doubt, where is it?

    geno8808 (9fdf88)

  52. What is the latest on the Kerry Pickens thing? Last I saw was after Kerry wrote the letter, Pickens issued some conditions, Kerry said he was backtracking. All this was a month ago. Anybody know of anything new?

    JayHub (0a6237)

  53. Nothing new since Pickens’ backtracking.

    This will never be resolved. To “Conservatives” Kerry’s “guilt” is as absolute as “Original Sin” in Chrsitan theology.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  54. I’ve fucked more Marines than you have. (They’re all “bottoms” BTW.)

    As one prisoner told me a long time ago, when he saw my concern about him being sexually assaulted in Chicago-Read, “Bad sex is better than no sex at all”.* But what would you characterize Kerry as — top or bottom?

    * He was a little guy, but a tough little guy. He was telling me he could take care of himself.

    nk (6061ba)

  55. A Bottom who thinks he’s a Top.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  56. I had no idea David regarded “the Bottom” as a position of contempt.

    Wonder if he tells his partners that.

    Techie (ed20d9)

  57. “The fact that leftists still cite the “Winter Soldier investigation” just serves to remind us that the left will always lie, and that it will continue to lie even when its lies have been exposed,”

    Data son. Give me data.
    I had another link up there too.
    You want more?
    The Phoenix program?

    blah (fb88b3)

  58. Well, Techie, I’ve been a “bottom” to several very highly-paid “prostitutes”, actually surgeons, who violated me in ways too horrible to describe here. I respected them very much. And trusted them. They saved my life. Cut us some slack with your “don’t touch me there” neuroses.

    nk (6061ba)

  59. But that can’t be said. Ever.

    THOUGHT CRIME !!!!!

    Whatya know, another liberal straw man!!!

    The claims he made were based on the Winter Soldier investigation, which was full of lies. Even if some were true, he made it sound like such things were commonplace, everyday occurrences – an exagerration of several orders of magnitude. He also said they were happening with the knowledge of the highest levels of command – a very serious charge for which neither he nor anyone ever provided substantiation. He never claimed to have witnessed such things personally – strange if these things were happening all over the place. He made it sound like everyone who served there did those things. That’s a huge smear on the troops who served there which is still believed by many to this day, no matter what kind of evasion your type engages in to defend it.

    Gerald A (2766ca)

  60. I had no idea David regarded “the Bottom” as a position of contempt.

    I don’t

    Republicans do.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  61. “You want more?
    The Phoenix program?”

    They don’t wanna hear about no stinkin’ Phoenix program.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  62. Right, whatever goes on in your mind games.

    Techie (ed20d9)

  63. Wonderful, instead of the topic at hand, David wishes to discuss his wide-ranging and colorful sex life.

    Gag. Sorry I ever played along.

    Techie (ed20d9)

  64. Fascinating David E. Your compulsion to tell people where your dick has been. Everybody else is probably as interested in the subject as I know I am. How many Army dicks have you sucked? Fascinating.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  65. for the record, i’ve never fucked any marines, top or bottom. not my cup of tea.

    shorter patterico: ignorance of the law is an excuse if you’re a swiftboater helping to tarnish a cowardly liberal. never mind that the cowardly liberal actually went to vietnam and put himself within range of gooks with guns, as opposed to the other fellow who won the election, who fought the vietnam war in the country clubs of texas and alabama.

    pickens did indeed change the terms of his bet. people like that can’t be trusted in the wagering context, i just ignore them.

    assistant devil's advocate (4efa79)

  66. The misnamed Vietnam Veterans of Against the War (VVAW, many were not veterans) and Winter Soldiers investigation also contained phony Phoenix members. Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam. To build their liberal street credentials, they all claimed to have repeatedly killed Vietnamese children and mutilated bodies as part of their official duties. Unfortunately for liberals and those others that hate America, it turns out none of them had never even been to Viet Nam, much less part of the Phoenix program. But hey, why disturb liberal fantasy’s with facts?

    Kerry testified to Congress that America soldiers were murdering 200,000 Vietnamese per year. My Lai was approximately 350 dead. But hey, when liberals want to make a point, it’s OK to exaggerate and then run for President. Just think of all the unclaimed Pulitzer Prizes and million dollar book deals that went uncollected because the liberal press was never able to verify the Winter Soldier allegations.

    No wonder David would rather talk about his sex life.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  67. I have not so much as begun to discuss my sex life.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  68. But hey, why disturb conservative fantasy’s with facts?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  69. Becuase you regard the truth as something easily managed.

    No David, the truth is not easily managed….as compared to liberals who will lie to manage anything…

    Oh, and, yes, Marines will risk their lives for you too….they’ve already done that, and continue to do so…

    And, my compliments to you on your comment to my wife and I…

    reff (bff229)

  70. Oh, and an off=handed comment on Pickens…

    If he is wrong, all Kerry has to do is prove it…even if he changed the terms of the bet…

    If Kerry did that, he could shut all of the arguments down…

    But, as proven well above, he won’t…because Kerry can’t prove his side….the lies he has told too many times can’t be “managed.”

    reff (bff229)

  71. And we wish you had never started about “f’ing” Marines either….but that’s not sex for you, is it?

    reff (bff229)

  72. David E. You are out of your element on this story. Quit flailing like a little wimp. When the facts stare at you, you stamp your feet and squeal to momma. Quit getting all of your opinions from Oprah or go back to Soros websites, where the the demented congregate.

    Don Clintoneone (fdf3aa)

  73. Elton Manzione with an “n”

    As noted in VVAW records, each veteran’s authenticity and testimony were checked after the hearings by Nixon’s “plumbers.” Charles Colson was assigned the task. In a confidential “Plan to Counteract Viet Nam Veterans Against the War”, Colson wrote, “The men that participated in the pseudo-atrocity hearings in Detroit will be checked to ascertain if they are genuine combat veterans.” At one point, the Nixon team suggested in a memo about VVAW, “Several of their regional coordinators are former Kennedy supporters.” VVAW was also targeted by the FBI for observation as a possible dissident organization.
    Although military documentation was provided, some media organizations such as the Detroit News made further inquiries into the hearings by questioning the authenticity of the testifying veterans. Discharge papers were examined; military records were checked against the Pentagon records; after all their digging, not one fraudulent veteran was found.”

    More

    In early 1971, the Blade wrote, these events became known to Army investigators, who, over a four-and-a-half-year period, conducted an inquiry that eventually concluded that eighteen Tiger Force members had participated in as many as twenty war crimes. It was the longest war-crimes investigation of the Vietnam War. But no one was charged, and in 1975 the investigation was quietly shut down. By then, six suspects had been allowed to resign from the Army, which removed them from military jurisdiction. The only soldier to be officially punished was a sergeant who had triggered the investigation by reporting that a member of the Tiger Force had decapitated an infant. (He was reprimanded for stating that he had witnessed the incident when in fact he had learned of it from others.) Two former Tiger Force members told the Blade that they had been encouraged by Army investigators not to say anything about what had occurred; in addition, investigators failed to pursue leads and made no effort to interview eyewitnesses in South Vietnam.
    The Blade’s Tiger Force story began, as many newspaper revelations do, with a tip and some documents that were made available to its Washington bureau. Two reporters, Michael D. Sallah and Mitch Weiss, spent eight months researching records and interviewing platoon members and Vietnamese survivors. The most telling evidence came from the participants. William Doyle, a former Tiger Force sergeant, said, “Nobody out there with any brains expected to live. So you did any goddamn thing you felt like doing—especially to stay alive.” The officers assigned to lead the Tiger Force were fully involved in the atrocities, which began with the execution of prisoners. Former Private Ken Kerney was quoted as saying, “The commanders told me, ‘What goes on here, stays here. You never tell anyone about what goes on here. If we find out you did, you won’t like it.’ ”

    more
    Home to War: A History of the Vietnam Veterans Movement

    blah (fb88b3)

  74. shorter patterico: ignorance of the law is an excuse if you’re a swiftboater helping to tarnish a cowardly liberal.

    I’ll defend Pat for him: he’s never once called Kerry a coward. In fact, he stated positively that Kerry was brave.

    It’s just plain wrong of you to claim otherwise, no matter what you’re trying to prove.

    Steverino (e00589)

  75. I have not so much as begun to discuss my sex life.

    Comment by David Ehrenstein — 12/20/2007 @ 1:06 pm

    Fascinating David. I’m sure you will regale us with more details shortly. You have a NEED. Compensating perhaps?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  76. Tell me when he does, so I can avoid the thread.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  77. …not one fraudulent veteran was found.

    Relying on Wikipedia for a politically charged issue?
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Like I mentioned before, if there was any substance to the Winter Soldier allegations, Pulitzers would have been awarded, book deals signed and movies made detailing every drop of blood. But all the liberals in America and all the Congressional committees could not verify a single word of individual testimony about atrocities.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  78. “David E. You are out of your element on this story. Quit flailing like a little wimp. When the facts stare at you, you stamp your feet and squeal to momma. Quit getting all of your opinions from Oprah or go back to Soros websites, where the the demented congregate.”

    My what a comforting fantasy that must be for the likes of a knuckle-dragging troglodite like you.
    I’m a “little wimp” (all 6 ft. 2 1/2 in. of me) who must love Oprah (loathe the botch AND the Magic Negor she’s shilling for) plus th inevitable invocation of teh Evil Soros.

    Life’s so much simpler when half you brain is on hold.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  79. “Like I mentioned before, if there was any substance to the Winter Soldier allegations, Pulitzers would have been awarded, book deals signed and movies made detailing every drop of blood.”

    That’s a rebuttal? To the Toledo Blade article too?
    sorry son.

    blah (fb88b3)

  80. Life’s so much simpler when half you brain is on hold.

    Here’s a tip, Dave: Don’t impugn others’ intelligence when you can’t be relied upon to get through more than one sentence without misspelling words like “your,” “the” and “Negro.”

    L.N. Smithee (0931d2)

  81. Spelling errors are of course a Capital Crime.

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  82. Spelling errors are of course a Capital Crime.

    No, not a “Capital Crime” (nice pun, as you misuse capital letters), but certainly not expected of a professional writer published on dead trees in a major metropolis and not, y’know, one of those “bloggers.”

    But then again, maybe it’s not the REAL David Ehrenstein. Would a REAL writer debase himself the way you have in this thread? Heck, when Andrew Sullivan was caught messing around in an AOL M4M chat room, at least he didn’t use his real name.

    As the New Yorker cartoon said, “On the internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.” Unless, of course, you tell everybody — even when nobody asked.

    L.N. Smithee (d1de1b)

  83. That’s a rebuttal? To the Toledo Blade article too?
    sorry son.

    To me, the greatest rebuttal to the Winter Soldier spectacle and John Kerry’s tales of atrocities was Kerry’s presidential campaign. He did not, as he has not for decades, displayed any evidence of the multiple mass war crimes, and as a Senator with a vise-grip on his seat, he has done nothing to rectify the situation.

    In the campaign, he was running away from his antiwar past while positioning himself as a the epitome of a war hero. Remember how he threw a mini-tantrum on the set of Good Morning America when his official 2004 story about the medals he threw back at the Capitol building was contradicted by an almost-forgotten interview in 1971?

    John Kerry is a lot like the guys caught up in the steroid scandals: They huff and puff about how they could sue the people who supposedly are defaming them for every cent they’ve got. Yet, they don’t.

    Makes you wonder why…for a couple of seconds.

    L.N. Smithee (d1de1b)

  84. That’s a rebuttal? To the Toledo Blade article too?

    Mr. Blah, read your own link. It has nothing to do with the Winter Soldier investigation. My point was the Winter Soldier investigation, which you linked to, was one of the biggest frauds in history and John Kerry used it as a basis for his false testimony to Congress. Not one of the many atrocity stories, allegedly personally witnessed by those attending Winter Solder investigation, was ever verified.

    Go find a link proving the America soldiers murdered 200,000 Vietnamese per year as Kerry testified.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  85. I think David is funning us and, to tell the truth, I don’t mind joining in. Kerry, under any reasonable scrutiny, is a gigolo who is not worth getting excited over. Whatever his record in Vietnam, he turned it into crap with his subsequent anti-war activism in order to get himself liked and elected in Massachussetts. And his personal life is basically the same kind of betrayal. Marrying a rich heiress, divorcing her, annuling the marriage even with two children who may now be technically bastards, going after an even richer one. I’m sorry that more than 50 million Americans were stupid enough to vote for the jerk.

    nk (6061ba)

  86. “Heck, when Andrew Sullivan was caught messing around in an AOL M4M chat room, at least he didn’t use his real name”

    No he didn’t.

    Are you sayuing that David Ehrenstein isn’t my real name?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  87. “Kerry, under any reasonable scrutiny, is a gigolo who is not worth getting excited over. “

    (Thanks for the Cole Porter cue!)

    “I should like you all to know,
    I’m a famous gigolo.
    And of lavender, my nature’s got just a dash in it.
    As I’m slightly undersexed,
    You will always find me next
    To some dowager who’s wealthy rather than passionate.
    Go to one of those night club places
    And you’ll find me stretching my braces
    Pushing ladies with lifted faces ’round the floor.
    But I must confess to you
    There are moments when I’m blue.
    And I ask myself whatever I do it for.

    I’m a flower that blooms in the winter,
    Sinking deeper and deeper in snow.
    I’m a baby who has
    No mother but jazz,
    I’m a gigolo.
    Ev’ry morning, when labor is over,
    To my sweet-scented lodgings I go,
    Take the glass from the shelf
    And look at myself,
    I’m a gigolo.
    I get stocks and bonds
    From faded blondes
    Ev’ry twenty-fifth of December.
    Still I’m just a pet
    That men forget
    And only tailors remember.
    Yet when I see the way all the ladies
    Treat their husbands who put up the dough,
    You cannot think me odd
    If then I thank God
    I’m a gigolo.”

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  88. Not using his real name made Sully’s trolling for bareback sex acceptable?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)

  89. David #89,

    Very good. Without looking it up, I’ll bet that Kerry’s best demographic was with middle-aged to elderly women.

    nk (6061ba)

  90. I’ll mix this up a bit:
    Perfect S: “Mr. Blah, read your own link. It has nothing to do with the Winter Soldier investigation.”

    My link had to do with war crimes in Vietnam.

    L.N. Smithee: “He did not, as he has not for decades, displayed any evidence of the multiple mass war crimes,”

    Read the link Perfect S. complains about. And there are plenty of others.

    Perfect S: “My point was the Winter Soldier investigation, which you linked to, was one of the biggest frauds in history”
    Again: Gimme data!

    blah (fb88b3)

  91. Marrying a rich heiress, divorcing her, annuling the marriage even with two children who may now be technically bastards,

    nk, the annulment was through the Catholic Church only, it wasn’t a civil annulment. So his kids aren’t bastards…except to the Church.

    Steverino (af57bc)

  92. Read the link Perfect S. complains about. And there are plenty of others.

    OK, read it. What’s it got to do with Winter Soldier, which made Kerry a national figure? Zip. Zero. Nada.

    Seymour Hersh — who, to me, lost all credibility when he started palling around with child predator Scott Ritter — bemoaned the lack of attention that the Toledo Blade on Tiger Force story received. Well, I guess there’s nothing anybody can do…

    Whoa, wait a minute! They know a guy who saw some of that stuff! John Kerry, the dude who almost became President! He’s a really famous guy who’s a decorated war hero! He’ll help the Blade in getting the word out war atrocities, right?

    (*********** crickets chirping ***********)

    L.N. Smithee (205780)

  93. At the risk of returning this thread to the nearly topical, Mr. Braun’s most recent journalistic faux pas presents another opportunity to re-examine some unfinished business relating to his “reportage” on John Kerry’s records.

    In his LAT article of Jun 8, 2005, Kerry Makes His Military, Medical File Available; The former presidential candidate’s Vietnam records, including a missing document, offer no surprises. Critics say papers are incomplete., Mr. Braun touches on at least 2 totally undeveloped or unexplored aspects of Kerry’s “records release.”

    Braun stated:

    “A less flattering portrait of Kerry shows up in other documents in the file. Correspondence from Navy officials reveals that soon after leaving Vietnam, Kerry took pains to make sure that all his wartime commendations were documented in his military file.”

    To my knowledge, THAT is the sum and substance of ANY further media reference, examination or inquiry (to include the conservative blogosphere) into the revelation of either the existence of “other documents” or, even more importantly, the CONTENT of those “other documents”. However, if my memory serves me correctly (and to Mr. Braun’s credit), NEITHER of the other 2 “chosen 3″ (Kranish of the Globe and Johnson of the AP) made mention of those “other documents” as they were heavily involved in promoting Kerry’s substandard college grades as the ostensible reason for Kerry’s obduracy in releasing his records. I don’t buy that for a second…and neither should anyone else. Can you imagine the MEDIA FRENZY that would have erupted if crucial documents were to appear (whose existence was previously and FREQUENTLY denied) relating to George Bush’s service?

    Mr. Braun, in fact, may have struggled with his “designee” status as an ethical journalistic conundrum evidenced, perhaps, by the fact that he was at least one day behind Kranish in filing his story (and, I believe, Johnson…whose contribution I have not yet located) and the fact that Braun wasn’t initially selected as a Kerry-records recipient until some 2 weeks AFTER Kranish and Johnson. Perhaps Kerry wasn’t totally secure in his confidence that Braun would “play ball” and keep a tight lip? And that raises the question of prior stipulations made by Kerry and agreed to by Mr. Braun? Someone should ASK Braun about that…point blank…get it ON THE RECORD.

    While Mr. Braun might make an argument that the pubkication of heretofore unseen copies of Kerry’s records are protected from revelation by journalistic ethics, can he say the same about an INDEX of the contents? How ’bout, at least, an INDEX OF THE CONTENTS Mr. Braun?

    Braun also refers to the “missing” page 1 of a fitness report prepared by LCDR Joseph Streuli for Kerry’s short tenure with Coastal 13:

    Kerry’s latest document release contained no new information on any of those controversies. But it did include the missing first page of a two- page evaluation from 1969…

    A careful review of the “fitreps” released by Kerry on his website reveal a most curious and suspect out-of-sequence presentation. Page 2 of the “Streuli fitrep” is preceded by PAGE 1 of George Elliot’s fitrep composed some 9 MONTHS AFTER Kerry left Vietnam. You could not have masked the fact of a missing Page 1 better if you tried and I’d suggest that it wasn’t unintentional.

    Several glaring questions are raised…

    Why would Kerry want to conceivably bury this fitrep? Perhaps to dissuade ANY examination or reference to his service with Coastal 13 at Can Tho?

    Why did this missing Page 1 suddenly find its way into the hands of these 3 reporters yet Kerry was unable to provide it…almost as mysteriously as Hillary’s subpoenaed “Rose Law Firm records” re-appeared on a table in the Clinton’s WH living quarters?

    What became of the original “fitrep” which would have assuredly been written by George Elliot on the occasion of Kerry’s Vietnam departure? It is almost incomprehensible that George Elliot would have failed to write such an IMPORTANT fitness report or that Kerry himself, who was coveting his Vietnam service as a key to his political career, would have stood for such a remarkable dereliction of the duty of ANY military commander.

    Perhaps the most obvious…why don’t the “chosen 3″ make this Page 1 available for public examination? After all, Kerry has already given tacit approval for the examination of his fitness reports…why should the missing Page 1 treated differently than all the others? How ’bout it Mr. Braun?

    Bingo (747f20)

  94. What became of Dubbya’s TANG documents?

    David Ehrenstein (4ce68d)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.3398 secs.