A “Moment of Silence” Update
[Guest post by DRJ]
Remember Rob and Dawn Sherman, the Chicago-area father and daughter who contested the Illinois’ statute that provides for a “moment of silence” in public schools?
They won in the trial court:
“A federal court judge Wednesday found that a new state law ordering a moment of silence for prayer or reflection at the start of the school day was “likely unconstitutional.”
U.S. District Court Judge Robert Gettleman blocked a northwest suburban school district from following the mandate, and he could extend the ban to schools statewide today. In his preliminary ruling, Gettleman found that the law was vague and questioned how teachers and school officials were supposed to follow it and how it was to be enforced.
The ruling is a victory for atheist Rob Sherman, who brought the lawsuit against Township High School District 214, where Sherman’s daughter, Dawn, is a freshman at Buffalo Grove High School. “It’s state sponsorship of prayer,” Sherman said.
“It’s nice to win one, for a change,” joked the activist, who is often in court battling for atheist causes.”
Most legal experts (including the local ACLU) thought this statute was not objectionable but the court apparently found it suggested prayer and/or was not limited to a moment of silence. Thus, it’s likely the court will expand this to a state-wide ban.
— DRJ
Questioned how to follow and enforce a moment of silence? This is really not too difficult. Be quiet.
My daughter’s Kindergarten class says the Pledge of Allegiance and sings the Star Spangled Banner every morning. I have no doubt, that during her school years, that these will be challenged by someone like this.
JD (33beff) — 11/16/2007 @ 7:24 amSo, if kids talked during the state mandated moment of silence, did they get detention?
dave (30198f) — 11/16/2007 @ 7:25 amOh joy, more gasoline to dump into the engines of hysterical rhetoric. Well get Michelle Malkin squawking about the religion hating values hating government on one side, and Randi Rhodes squawking about they barely stopped the creeping theocratic state on the other side.
We had a moment of silence when I was a kid and nobody in class fell down and started speaking in tongues.
EdWood (c2268a) — 11/16/2007 @ 7:25 amthey’re in school to learn. they’re part of a competitive global economy also featuring chinese and indian kids who don’t observe moments of silence and who are kicking our kids’ ass on test scores. there aren’t enough minutes in the day devoted to education to waste one as a sop to somebody’s religion; keep that in church where it belongs.
assistant devil's advocate (0745ca) — 11/16/2007 @ 7:27 amTo object to a moment of silence is to demonstrate religious intolerance to an extreme degree.
dchamil (0ebac0) — 11/16/2007 @ 8:21 am#4 Some of what we expect kids to learn is how to get along with others and to be respectful of other ideas and beliefs. But apparently not in the U.S. any more. And our schools are doing such a bang up job of educating our youth, right?
#5 Here, here. Well said.
Jay Curtis (8f6541) — 11/16/2007 @ 8:25 amI can see why the atheist attorney was surprised at the victory since he knows virtually every case they bring forth will have no prayer.
Not a believer in a god, or no god like atheism believers, but I’ll second the extraneous religious and social manipulation fluff being chucked off the school grounds. So let’s also include all the diversity cupcakes, free to be me but not you parties, we are the world songfests, and the most insidious one…parents with agendas, grudges, and lawyers. Can I get an amen…? Oh, nice. Is that your IQ, or is your middle finger got a widdle owwie?
allan (fc1bd8) — 11/16/2007 @ 8:41 amADA, before I start, I am completely opposed to any form of prayer in public schools, because my argument is “Who will lead the prayer?”
That said, I question how the “church” is in the school when someone says “We will now have a moment of silent meditation.”
reff (bff229) — 11/16/2007 @ 9:36 amIsn’t it about time to examine what schools purport to do? They don’t educate=witness the progressively lower achievement of each generation of school children. They do serve to undercut parental authority. Why is it that schools won’t allow children to give each othger an aspirin but will handout condoms and birth control pills?
They promote values that parents are opposed to by huge margains and then tell school children not to report to their parents about the kind of indoctrination they are undergoing.
Its time to take the ACLU and academics out of schools and get some people with commonsense and decent values back into academia lest we have more Duke or Univ of Delaware repeats.
As for the secularists, since they cannot tolerate others beliefs they ought to allow vouchers so they can set up their own re-education camps and not have to tolerate those evil ideas like Christianity.
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 11/16/2007 @ 9:47 amreff, it’s objectionable because that moment of meditation was paid for by taxpayers like me, who want to get value for our education dollar. the notion expressed in #6 that a moment of silence teaches kids to get along better with others and respect their beliefs is hogwash, it’s an absolute waste of time. i have no problem with people praying or meditating on their own time and initiative, but when a teacher tells a class to be silent for an overtly religious minute (thank you #5) that’s top-down, state-sponsored religion, which is unconstitutional. naturally, my effort to uphold the constitution will be spinned as intolerant persecution by the christian victimologists (thanks again #5). #1, i would expect someone with a jd to be aware of the u.s. supreme court case, barnett v. west virginia school district, where a young jehovah’s witness sued the district for the right to abstain from the pledge of allegiance in class, and won. i guess jehovah’s witnesses are good for something.
assistant devil's advocate (23d204) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:12 amI dunno, I think I’m getting my more of money’s worth when students shut up for a minute than when they keep talking.
Steverino (e00589) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:20 amOur “moment of silence” came and went right after the pledge of allegiance and was noticed by no-one. Maybe that’s not true elsewhere but the one minute we took didn’t slow us down at all.
EdWood (c2268a) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:32 amclearly silence is objectionable the utter and complete lack of noise is obviously a symbolic effort of the neocon theocracy trying to shove not only their christian but also zionist belief systems down our throats we must fight the zionists christianists and rebuff their attempts at indoctrination
JD (33beff) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:32 amHeh, Steverino #11,
I just got back from helping out at the “Thankgiving Feast” in my daughter’s school. As cute a bunch of kids as you’d ever meet but a moment of silence was an unanswered prayer.
nk (09a321) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:32 amADA…we use our moment of meditation and encourage students to remember that they have character, and to gather themselves for their day…
I’ve been in schools where the moment is encouraged to remind students that they have goals for the day (these have been reinforced before the moment) and they include learning and being a good person…
Character Education is mandated by local, state, and feds, and we can’t use religion, which has the best basis, so, a moment of silence is included in the process….and it is recommended by several noted Character Education formats…
Now, for you too “ASSUME” that these things, also paid for by taxpayer funds, and mandated by the people those same taxpayers put in office, is “hogwash” is to simply be blind to what happens on a daily basis. As a teacher, I’m expected to be alot of things to a student above and beyond being a teacher, and these things are included in that.
You call it an “overtly religious minute” yet you cannot show me anywhere in the use of that minute where anything “religious” is used. Please identify for us the ‘state sponsored religion’ here, unless you think Character education is a religion. That is a fact you cannot overcome. Come to my school and see that for yourself. In addition, individual teachers do the same thing when teaching here; we get students to stop for moments and think before they respond, to think before they answer, and in my class it is many times used for teaching Character. If you do it enough, it gets used correctly.
Now, let me conclude with this again: I am completely against any type of prayer in public schools, because I fear the leader of the prayer. I have a tremendous affect on my students, and if I led a “PRAYER” I could easily lead those same students into a religion. I love to ask those who believe in prayer in schools this question: “If it is ok to lead prayers in schools, can I lead the prayer for the Muslim warrior who is going to kill the infidel? Would this prayer be acceptable?”
I don’t think it is; I do believe we can use a moment of silence as a teaching tool….
reff (bff229) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:56 amADA, by the way, you didn’t answer my question: How is the “church” in the school when someone says “We will now have a moment of silent meditation?”
reff (bff229) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:58 amADA don’t you remember school? I can promise you that teachers aren’t rushing to beat the bell as they impart vital knowledge to our kids. Nor are the children writing as fast as their little hands will go, taking notes on the ideas that will make or break their future careers.
If you are concerned about wasted time and tax dollars, cut the moment of silence, shorten between class breaks and the lunch period, remove all parties and extraneous activities (pep rally you hear me calling you out?), announcements by the principal and the like.
The extra minute of silence is not the factor that is wasting tax dollars.
Dr T (69c4b2) — 11/16/2007 @ 11:08 amnk, just wait till she’s a teenager and has friends over. I love my daughter with all my heart, but I am glad she’s in college now and not at home every day.
When her friends gathered, it made me yearn for an anechoic chamber.
Steverino (e00589) — 11/16/2007 @ 11:22 amreff, just look at comment #5. that’s one of your teammates, and he just expressly equated the moment of silence with religion, unwittingly revealing the true agenda behind “character education”. what is your metric for measuring character, and can you cite any research showing that kids who observe a moment of silence in schools have more/better character than those who don’t?
assistant devil's advocate (c6ce5b) — 11/16/2007 @ 12:52 pmADA:
Clarify a point for us all. Are you an employee of the devil or just a sub contractor?
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 11/16/2007 @ 3:25 pmADA- actually, #5 is pointing out that the lawsuit objects to the moment of silence because it could possibly be religious, thus showing a really psychotic level of hatred for religion.
That’s pretty clear, if you read in the context of the story.
Watch your assumptions, please.
(Also– team? WHAT?!?! Where’s my jersey?!?)
Foxfier (97deae) — 11/16/2007 @ 8:28 pmADA…you didn’t answer my question…because you can’t…
I don’t have teammates, I’m a referee….
As for “stats” that you ask for….what a joke that question is…
I can’t…doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, does it? The program is one of several that we have chosen, and we simply implemented it to supplement what we try to do with students in the areas of discipline and leadership. There isn’t any thing like you ask…
But, since you asked, show me the stats that kids who DON’T have a moment of silence are better or have better character than those that do….
You can’t either…
So, answer the question, if you dare, and tell us where the “church” is when someone offers a moment of silent meditation…
You gutless piece of crap….
reff (99666d) — 11/16/2007 @ 9:35 pmADA…and, just so you understand what #5 is referring to…
THE ABSOLUTE INTOLERANCE OF ANY RELIGION BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO EQUATE A MOMENT OF SILENCE WITH A RELIGION.
So, please, tell us what religion is being celebrated in the school that offers a moment of silence…
And, remember, I am completely against prayer in public schools….
You can’t even have a legitimate debate with my dead mother, and you want to take me on???
reff (99666d) — 11/16/2007 @ 9:38 pmADA objects to the moment of silence as “stolen” education in favor of “religion”
will ignoring the huge chunks of time devoted to the religious dogma of Anthropogenic Global Warming.
Guess it depends on whose faith is being promoted, eh, ada?
Darleen (187edc) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:18 pmwhoops…type
should be: “stolen” from education in favor of “religion”
Darleen (187edc) — 11/16/2007 @ 10:19 pmADA…a gutless piece of crap who can’t answer a simple question…
reff (99666d) — 11/18/2007 @ 7:52 pm