Patterico's Pontifications

9/21/2007

New York Governor to announce Policy that may Attract lots of Immigrants

Filed under: Immigration — DRJ @ 4:38 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

Fulfilling a campaign promise, New York Governor Eliott Spitzer will announce that New York drivers licenses need not be verified by legal status documents or valid Social Security numbers, enabling illegal immigrants to get New York State drivers licenses beginning in 2008:

“Illegal immigrants in New York will be allowed to obtain New York State driver’s licenses under a new policy that the Spitzer administration is expected to announce shortly, a source said.

Starting in 2008, the Department of Motor Vehicles will accept foreign passports and birth certificates from immigrants as proofs of identification for new license applications. Immigrants will no longer need to provide legal status paperwork or a Social Security card, the source said.”

This is a difficult area. For safety, we want everyone who drives to have a drivers license and insurance (although insurance is available in some states regardless of legal status). However, having a drivers license permits the holder access to American benefits and financing that will encourage more illegal immigrants to come to the US.

Decisions like this require balancing and in my opinion Spitzer has not reached the right balance. Plus, this would not be a popular decision with most people in my border state, proving once again that Texas is not New York.

— DRJ

29 Responses to “New York Governor to announce Policy that may Attract lots of Immigrants”

  1. Seems easy to me. Disassociate the driver’s license from everything else other than certification of competence to drive.

    Over the years, especially since the addition of photographs in I guess the 80’s in most places, driver’s licenses have become defacto government ID’s for many purposes, from voting to credit card use and check cashing to airline travel.

    Early on, it was a good visual shorthand way for people checking to make sure that people were who they said they were, I suppose.

    Now, it’s ridiculous. From a libertarian perspective, state driver’s licenses are an affront to freedom, to the extent that a Government ID is required to just get through basic transactions that should be freely open to all citizens involving routine financial dealings, travel, and voting.

    From a security and practical standpoint, it’s also ridiculous. The various States’ motor vehicle departments are probably the least competent bureaucracy imaginable to screen for such things as citizenship status or security threat. And a driver’s license is easily forged, with minimal effort, what with cheap photoshop, magnetic strip, and plastic card computer periphrials.

    Let the DMV’s of the various jurisdictions do what they (barely) do well: certify that this person can pass a driver’s test, and perhaps that this person is able to obtain insurance, and thus is authorized to drive on the streets. Have the license mean nothing more than that.

    The benefit of this would be, the illegal residents among us would at least be as competent
    to drive as the actual citizens and legal residents who pass the test.

    The downside would be, various industries and governmental security branches that have long relied on a meaningless (in terms of actually screening threats) and easily forged form of quasi-ID would have to figure out something else to establish ID and assess threats.

    This idea probably makes brains explode across the political spectrum: for various reasons an actual USA ID card is unacceptable for some, the requirement of proof of a bank account or credit cards or biometrics or proof of residency or whatever may also be unacceptable to people for various reasons. But at least it puts those issues out there, instead of relying on the fake security of a pseudo-ID easily obtainable through fraud or forgery.

    Let’s let the DMV do what it should — certify that the person has a minimal competency to drive the streets. That will cut down on unlicensed illegal residents without any clue about road rules and safety driving, at least, if you greatly up the penalties of driving without a valid license, which should be done.

    Let’s leave the much harder questions — how much documentation must a US citizen have to carry to get basic economic and citizen related functions done — to more competent agencies than the local DMV.

    aplomb (7e0317)

  2. Well, the next time you have an identity theft problem, you’ll see that it will be more likely to be from New York.

    Robin Roberts (6c18fd)

  3. This idea probably makes brains explode across the political spectrum: for various reasons an actual USA ID card is unacceptable for some, the requirement of proof of a bank account or credit cards or biometrics or proof of residency or whatever may also be unacceptable to people for various reasons. But at least it puts those issues out there, instead of relying on the fake security of a pseudo-ID easily obtainable through fraud or forgery.

    I agree with Aplomb that the Driver’s License has become an inadequate substitute for more a more fraud and forgery resistant type of ID. IIRC one or more of the 9-11 terrorists had legitimately obtained drivers licenses.

    Personally, I favor a national ID backed by fingerprints and/or other biometric identifiers. People who don’t want to show ID in conjunction with credit card or other commercial transactions can pay cash.

    Stu707 (adbb5a)

  4. I’ve never understood what is so terrible about being able to prove, conclusively and easily, that you are who you say you are. I carry a passport with me even when I travel in the US, and I have no qualms about proving my identity when I conduct banking or other transactions. I think it actually makes sense. Anyway, in a world where you can use the same ATM card you use to access your account in Peoria while you’re traveling in Europe, does anyone really think they can hide their electronic trail anymore? I just don’t get the fear factor about national IDs. If you have a passport, you have a national ID. Big deal.

    I think the appropriate Homeland Security response to the Spitzer proposal would be to disallow the use of NY drivers licenses in airports. Make them use passports or birth certificates if they want to travel. That’ll get their attention.

    driver (faae10)

  5. I agree, Driver.

    DRJ (ec59b5)

  6. Most importantly it allows the holder to vote. Motor Voter mandates that all that is required to register to vote is a driver’s license.

    Democrats want illegal aliens to vote. This is their back door.

    Corky Boyd (a8cc75)

  7. Republican Party of Texas platform:

    “…we further oppose any government effort to implement a national ID program, including federalization of driver’s licenses.”

    http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/Platform_Updated.pdf?docID=2001

    Don’t tell me y’all disagree?

    alphie (99bc18)

  8. And just what does opposition to a national ID card have to do with a fake state ID card moron, basement-dweller Alphie?

    When are you finally going to get off on your sado-masochistic self-abuse trip and leave us alone?

    nk (2f5778)

  9. Alphie:

    Don’t tell me y’all disagree?

    Are you mocking my accent, Alphie?

    DRJ (ec59b5)

  10. Haha, DRJ,

    Do you side with Texas Republicans on this or not?

    alphie (99bc18)

  11. Alphie, please achieve “finish” real soon and get off this site, you disgusting little creep.

    nk (2f5778)

  12. Alphie, I’m in favor of a federal ID program for all citizens and legal residents.

    DRJ (ec59b5)

  13. Someone said, with aplomb:

    Let’s leave the much harder questions — how much documentation must a US citizen have to carry to get basic economic and citizen related functions done — to more competent agencies than the local DMV.

    To hire someone, an employer must complete Immigration form I-9, and the I-9 specifies that adequate identification is a combination of a state-issued picture identification (normally a driver’s license) and a Social Security card. Both can be, and are, easily forged. Then, the employer is instructed not,/i> to send the completed I-9 to the government, but to retain it in the employee’s personnel file for a minimum of three years, just in case the USCIS or Department of Labor happens to visit and wants to see the form.

    Dana (3e4784)

  14. Alphie, for once, raises a real and valid point: most Americans do not want to see a national ID card. Too many references to “Ve haff to see you papers” arise. I certainly hate the idea!

    But a secure NID, with a readable magnetic strip, is the simplest, most efficient mechanism we could ever have for addressing the various immigration issues. The lack of one would immediately alert law enforcement that anyone apprehended without one was here illegally; the lack of one would force employers to not hire the illegals; and the lack of one would be a bar to welfare benefits and (eventually, unfortunately) government-paid-for medical care.

    Dana (3e4784)

  15. Alphie, there isn’t a thread that you post in anywhere online that you don’t try to torque into a one-sided referendum on the right or republicans or the war or Bush. You try to run a blog within a blog to champion your distorted viewpoints. Your method is to make the most outrageous ignorant opening that you can think of to force engagement on your terms. One after another sites purge you because they don’t want to be your blog host. You think you got tossed out of the parties because everyone was afraid you’d get all the girls. It must suck to be you.

    Just Passing Through (ff997a)

  16. Dana, no he doesn’t. He was attempting a hijack.

    Just Passing Through (ff997a)

  17. “Alphie, for once, raises a real and valid point: most Americans do not want to see a national ID card. ”

    We’re getting one by the way. Without really having congressional hearings (it was snuck into an iraq and tsunami relief bill). Its called REAL ID.

    “But a secure NID, with a readable magnetic strip, is the simplest, most efficient mechanism we could ever have for addressing the various immigration issues.”

    As well as facilitatiing identity theft.

    amarc (10527e)

  18. Following up on Dana, I have long thought that a secure NID, with magnetic strip, would also go a long way toward alleviating our rampant voter fraud problem. And not just because of the illegals. College kids and snowbirds who double vote would also get caught. A whole lot of shenanigans that people are now able to pull off would disappear, once they had to actually prove their identities.

    driver (faae10)

  19. The “proper” method, IMNSHO, would be for federal _standards_ for driver’s licenses (as well as all law enforcement IDs.)

    IIRC, this particular policy is going to run afoul of the ‘RealID Act’ that was passed and signed in the back-and-forth over immigration. -> NY Driver’s Licenses won’t be sufficient to get on an airplane.

    Al (b624ac)

  20. “NY Driver’s Licenses won’t be sufficient to get on an airplane.”

    Something tells me the feds will back down instead of stopping NY’ers from flying.

    amarc (10527e)

  21. Dana… most I-9’s filled out by illegals would have an SS card and an Alien ID or green card that proves the right of the alien to work legally in the US.
    Those are the two most common forgeries and cheap packages are sold around MacArthur Park, Oxnard, Salinas, Fresno, Santa Ana for $50. Higher quality in the alien ID can cost over $100 and that gets the buyer a straight (not crooked) picture, a real fingerprint and a good alpha numeric sequence.
    I think it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of a feeling that the cards might be faked because the holder is Mexican.

    The hardest fraud to detect is legal aliens that have moved back to Mexico, or who have died in Mexico that have their identity sold. Usually to a family member, but sometimes it gets on the black market.
    US citizen minor children that have been taken back to Mexico and stay can as young adults can sell their identity.
    Some people use their children’s real birth certificate to smuggle in a few kids a year at $5K each.

    ID cards need to be scannable… credit cards do it, but they have a profit incentive and exposure to loss via fraud.
    The federal governmet would probably foul the system up so bad it’d make King-Drew hospital or the LA school payroll system look like model programs.

    (Hijacking to health care, next time someone in LA gives Federal run health care a push, ask ’em if they’d like to have been treated at King Drew…

    SteveG (4e16fc)

  22. I gotta run, but I wanted to say I have been in Agriculture and Construction in Southern California my entire life. Which means I’ve worked with illegals since 1972.
    My first job when I was 15 was installing avocado orchards between Santa Barbara and Ventura counties. The Border Patrol raided the site (which was miles of bare dirt slopes) and everyone starts running… so I did too. I had no idea what was going on. I’m blond, blue eyes and one of the agents comes up to me later and just starts screaming at me for screwing around with them.
    The guys they caught and deported were back at work two days later.
    That was 1972. Not much has changed

    SteveG (4e16fc)

  23. Thank you, Mr. Spitzer! This ought to help home prices and welfare costs in California!

    BTW how do we kow that buying insurance is mediated only by the failure to hold a license? This story would suggest that most of the scofflaws simply don’t care at all about safety or responsibility on the road. Unlicensed drivers targeted

    Patricia (4117a9)

  24. amarc …
    The REAL ID ACT does require that if a State issues driver’s licenses to illegal aliens, that licenses from that State will not be accepted as ID for the purposes of boarding aircraft.
    I don’t see Homeland Security budging on this absence an Act of Congress.
    Plus, the airlines would have to be given immunity for ignoring a Federal law, absent that AofC.
    As has been shown during his brief tenure in Albany, Spitzer is a putz; and, not a very bright on either, it seems.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  25. I thought Cuomo was bad and then came Pataki. I dont know when NY is going to get smart and stop electing these guys. Spitzer is worse than both of those other clowns. The budget is a joke and now this. Cant wait to get out of this state.

    John (208b86)

  26. “The REAL ID ACT does require that if a State issues driver’s licenses to illegal aliens, that licenses from that State will not be accepted as ID for the purposes of boarding aircraft.”

    It actually much more extreme. It requires that states that don’t follow all the regulations made by DHS can’t use their licensese for federal or travel purposes.

    “I don’t see Homeland Security budging on this absence an Act of Congress.”

    They’re the ones writing the regulations and setting the deadlines.

    BTW: its not just NY. Several states have decided to ignore REAL ID.

    amarc (10527e)

  27. The big apple is getting a few more worms and the other worms are getting disgusted

    krazy kagu (444070)

  28. All it would take is one state to say it will no longer recognize New York drivers licences, what then?

    I got to believe that several states have this exact legistlation in the works already.

    j curtis (ecc9cc)

  29. Governor Eliot Spitzer is right, and he is a hero!
    Those bandit and scoundrel republicans are dividing our society with scare tactics. They are trying to make our country a hatemonger country. We welcome immigrants and their contribution to our society. The Americans who claim not to have jobs and complaining are the lazy scum of our society; we are hard working proud Americans who are not afraid to help the poor and make our society a welcoming society. Governor Eliot Spitzer is a real American whom our forefathers should be proud of. I pray to God he prevails, in which case he already did. For those of you, hateful dirt(s), go join the KKK, live in a trailer somewhere in the South in remote swaps, marry your closest, and do yourself a favor; don’t pollute our welcoming state and our country with your hate speeches. After all is it not a republican who was preying on young boy interns, and the other who took his family value straight to the rest room looking for perverts at least that was told. We are God fearing good and clean Americans, not thieves and perverts. Spitzer is right, let the poor dream as well.

    Thank you, may God bless Spitzer and our country; may God give your hateful heart the scent of worship and care. And when I say worship is not worshipping the hateful rep., the overweight and ugly Congressman James Sensenbrenner, whose cholesterol level still out scores his ego and hatred. Why don’t he focus on his health and eating habits rather than scaring Americans with his inflated fear tactics, back room politics and poisons bills; he might as well go and work for groups like the K.K.K. We are a welcoming nation; we feed the poor; we pray to God; we love and respect our family, neighbors and God’s creatures. Why don’t we listen to star citizens such as the priests who devoted their lives for the good of men and God; who are telling us to be kind, why do we follow a no good liar republican politician? It simply beats logic away. Go Spitzer and alike, enough of these lies.

    john plotnick (aa6f9d)


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