Patterico's Pontifications

9/7/2007

What’s Good for Me is not Good for Thee

Filed under: International — DRJ @ 4:21 am



[Guest post by DRJ]

President Bush is in Sydney, Australia, attending the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit. Bush and South Korean President Roh had an unexpectedly testy exchange regarding declaring an end to the Korean conflict that ended 50 years ago in a truce, not a declaration of peace. Roh wanted Bush to declare peace now while Bush repeatedly insisted – three times – that peace can come only after North Korea dismantles its nuclear weapon program. It sounds to me like Roh was trying to tweak America or Bush to score political points with the folks back home. The US diplomatically described it as a “lost in translation” moment.

On the security front, local police commissioner Andrew Scipione describes the APEC summit as the “biggest security event we’ve ever had in this nation” – which is saying something, since Australia hosted the 2004 Summer Olympics. Thousands of protesters are expected and the police are understandably concerned about security:

”Police expect the protests to be violent and have barred 29 known protesters from the centre of Sydney and warned demonstrators not to march near the APEC summit venue. “Our police, particularly in APEC, are not there to be punching bags, they are not there to be spat upon, they are not there to be assaulted,” said Scipione.”

Bar protesters in advance? Apparently that’s not enough to ensure security so last week Australia built a fence:

”Construction of a concrete and wire security fence which will cut the centre of Sydney in half began on Saturday as part of the nation’s biggest security operation for next week’s Asia-Pacific leaders’ summit. The 5-km (3-mile) fence will isolate the leaders, who include U.S. President George W. Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin, in the Sydney Opera House and surrounding hotels.”

I guess it’s true that “One man’s fence is another man’s prison” as long as you remember the corollary: Fences are good when they protect the right people.

PS – Even with a fence, security is still a problem.

35 Responses to “What’s Good for Me is not Good for Thee”

  1. It troubles me that at these “prosperity” conferences, protestors are being managed in these ways. I agree that those who engage in violence should be arrested and prosecuted. My understanding, however, is that many of those who protest these conferences are not commie hippies bent on wreaking havoc. Many are those who are hurt by the agreements coming from these gaggles of elites– and who have not other recourse to bring attention to their predicament. For instance, at the recent Canadian summit, people concerned about retaining the sovereignty of their respective countries were present.

    These “prosperity” organizations are not facilitators of true free trade. They are throwbacks to mercantilism–injected with Fabian socialism–and masquerading as free trade. These organizations come up with the usual kinds of regulations that favor the powerful who are already in the game at the expense of the “upstarts”. In other words, the elites determine who will win and who will lose. People should have the right to protest such blatently unfair favoritism.

    I am aware of what some of the protestors did in Seattle and other places–but I believe that they were the minority. If you read accounts of the recent Canadian summit, you will find convincing evidence that the police sent 3 or 4 agent provocatuers into the ranks of the protestors–who, fortunately, detected them as the men begin to cause trouble.

    As I read the article that DRJ hyperlinked, I am struck and disturbed at how Sydney is being “locked down” in such a way that affects, not only the protestors, but the populace trying to get to work and go about their business. This seems to hearken back to the times of the “divine rights of kings” and in inconsistent with free societies in which the leaders are servants of the people. I keep envisioning the king’s coach running over some hapless peasant on this way to market with his produce.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  2. Jerri – They are in Australia. Their land, their rules.

    JD (f6a000)

  3. The President should have asked Governor Perry to detail a Texas Ranger to him for the conference and saved the City of Sudney a ton of money.

    nk (a6ecc6)

  4. Part of the problem Jerri, is that no few of the violent protesters (which includes anarchists and communists) deliberately hide among the other protesters, even dawning masks before starting their violence. It makes it hard to separate the deliberate trouble makers from the peaceful types, and it doesn’t take a very large minority to cause a lot of trouble.

    Protests are so ’60s any way, and they’re a way for a noisy minority to exert undue political influence.

    Maybe cities should start building their convention facilities away from downtown.

    LarryD (feb78b)

  5. thank you jerri lynn ward, you’re smarter than your critics on here.

    their land, their rules…

    ok, we can have fun with that. stoning rape victims to death in nigeria – their land, their rules. female genital mutilation in a number of countries – ditto. locals beheading american soldiers and mercs in iraq – same thing. i am not an australian, but i reserve the right to weigh australia, america and everywhere else against my vision of an ideal system, and disclose the result on the internet. there is simply too much deference to authority on display here.

    even dawning masks before starting their violence…

    larryd, that’s f***ing priceless. your comment has inspired me to go dusk my furniture.

    assistant devil's advocate (4c7546)

  6. Jerri Lynn,
    The anti-globalists who show up at these events include many who are there to cause violence. I think the Aussies have it right. Those “few” contribute nothing to the discussion of world economic policy and just want to break things. It’s an impossible task to weed them out in the heat of the moment.

    As to Roh, bashing the US President is always good for home politics. Additionally, from what I read, S. Korea Big Business is eyeing all those skinny folks up north as very, very cheap labor. Sounds like how our border policy originated.

    Patricia (549779)

  7. ada – So, the Aussies are required to maintain demonstration zones, and free speech zones, like we find on university campuses over here?

    JD (f6a000)

  8. “i am not an australian, but i reserve the right to weigh australia, america and everywhere else against my vision of an ideal system…”

    ada….I think there is simply too much deference to arrogance here….I didn’t know you had that much…for you to think that you have right to weigh anything against “YOUR IDEAL” shows such an arrogance….

    Oh, and just for show purposes….that is exactly the same thing the Mexican “dictator” did just last week…weigh in on the rules of a soverign nation, and say to his people that that those rules should not apply to his citizens….Austrailian laws should apply when you are in Austrailia….don’t like that? Go there, become a citizen, and get them changed…otherwise, your opinion is no different than your butt….and you know what that means…

    reff (bff229)

  9. jd, all public places in america are free speech zones. i’m aware of the reasonable restrictions on time, place and manner, but removing all demonstrators from the eyesight of the overlords is unreasonable in the context of our bill of rights. btw, did you hear about bush’s performance there? he said “opec” instead of “apec”, referred to the host nation’s soldiers as “austrian troops” and almost plummetted off the wrong part of the stage afterward, what a great video that would have made.

    reff, thank you for showing us your butt, why don’t you apply several tissues to it before you stink up this blog.

    assistant devil's advocate (4c7546)

  10. ada – What about the “free speech zones” at universities? The designated demonstration zones at political conventions? Are the Aussies required to operate on our rules because we are on their soil? Good God, you are dense. Lead.

    JD (f6a000)

  11. ok, ada…

    show us your ideal place….

    And, if you know what my butt looks like, I’m wondering why you would be looking…

    But, I digress….it is still arrogant of you to think your ideal place is worth comparing, when you haven’t told us what that is….

    and you won’t….

    reff (bff229)

  12. P.S…..it’s your opinion that is like your butt…it already is stinking up this blog…but I didn’t want to embarass you by mentioning that….

    Also, first one to say it stinks is the one that let it out….

    reff (bff229)

  13. Of course I do not have the right or power to insist that other countries do things differently insofar as free speech is concerned. However, I think that it is notable that the underlying legal traditions of U.S., Australia and Canada all spring from a common source–the Rights of Englishmen and the notion that rights are not something that are granted by government–but come from God. All three countries are departing from that source and descending into positivist law which supports the idea that “might makes right” and that there are no transcendent truths regarding individual rights. It is not comforting to see Australia betraying these principles, given how closely related we are philosophically.

    At the Canada summit, the press was not even allowed in and was granted only photo ops. That is troubling in light of the fact that President of Mexico was there talking to Bush and the Canadian President about issues that regard our sovereignty. This keeping an arms length between these elites and the press and the people at these economic summits is troubling to me.

    Insofar as protests being a thing of the 60’s, I think that it is an important right. There are tangible and intangible ways to impact the system. The tangible ways include becoming part of the system and changing it. The intangible way is drawing the attention of the public to the perpetration of wrongs. This is what happened with the Civil Rights Movement.

    The intangible means is important because things have developed to the point now where the people seem to have very little recourse when it comes to preserving our sovereignty. We had to shut down the phone systems of Congress to beat the Immigration Bill (yet it is coming back) and, here in Texas, our representatives passed bills to stop the Trans-Texas Corridor–yet our chief executive stomped all over the will of the people by vetoing these measures after the session was over. (You should have seen the booing of his video (since he didn’t bother to come) at the Texas GOP Straw Poll last weekend.)

    The “fence” to which DRJ alludes is not completely comparable, in my mind, to the Israeli fence story she hyperlinks to. It’s more like the moat around an English fortress located in William Wallace’s Scotland to my way of thinking.

    Then, again, I might be biased. Bush’s shameful undermining of our sovereignty has turned me completely against the man. Everything he does is suspect to me. I have come from voting for him twice to a severe case of Bush derangement syndrome.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (86312b)

  14. he said “opec” instead of “apec”, referred to the host nation’s soldiers as “austrian troops”

    Oh my goodness, you mean a world leader actually misspoke? Why that has never happened before in recorded history [snicker & snort].

    Honestly, I don’t mind people criticizing Bush on important stuff, but this is petty even by your standards, ada.

    JVW (6a3590)

  15. Even if he didn’t know what country he was in, or whom he was addressing, at least he didn’t vomit on any diplomats. Baby steps.

    JVW – sure, it is a little petty, but these things matter in diplomacy. Looking like an overmedicated fool on the world stage is not a good thing for the President of the U.S. Ask our good host here how he’d feel about opposing council that appeared either not to know where he was, or what organization he was representing, or perhaps simply didn’t care enough to go over notes before speaking. (Not an exact analogy, but close enough.)

    fishbane (27af3f)

  16. JVW – That is just proof that Cheney is really the President, but they kept W around because Cheney could not get elected on his own. Good Lord, fishbane, you acknowledge that it is a petty point, and then go on to defend it. It is either petty, or important, pick one.

    JD (f6a000)

  17. Jerri Lynn,

    The beauty of the American system is that you don’t have to believe in the man to believe in the system. I don’t care if you’ve given up on Bush the man but don’t confuse that with the system.

    As for the protesters and the fence, it’s interesting to me that Australia chose to ban protesters and build a fence. But choosing to do some things different in Australia than we do in America isn’t going to crash the entire democratic system. They’re experimenting by banning protesters and building fences. Australians may ultimately decide it works or they may find it’s overreaching, but it would be far more troubling to me if every democracy advanced in lockstep.

    DRJ (8b9d41)

  18. Good Lord, fishbane, you acknowledge that it is a petty point, and then go on to defend it. It is either petty, or important, pick one.

    What I was getting at is that any singular instance would be trivial. We’ve all done something mildly embarrassing at one point or another. The problem is that Bush has been doing this repeatedly – from grabbing German leaders, to grabbing Japanese leaders, to constant misspeaking, to demonstrating that he’s either unaware, disinterested or lying about significant actions by our government, to strutting around in a codpiece, to failing to know how to get off a stage.

    It all adds up to a national embarrassment. Put a different way, if a friend comes over to a celebration you’re throwing and has one too many, no big deal. Once or twice. After a while, I think you are as likely as I am to stop inviting him over. (Again, not an exact analogy, and no, I’m not calling Bush a drunk.)

    fishbane (27af3f)

  19. DRJ said:

    “Australians may ultimately decide it works or they may find it’s overreaching, but it would be far more troubling to me if every democracy advanced in lockstep.”

    DRJ,

    To me, that’s what appears to be happening. When it comes to the right for a man to express his views, Australia, Canada, Great Britain and the U.S. seem to be advancing in lockstep down the path of control of speech. Here, we have McCain Feingold and the “free speech” areas another commenter mentioned. In Canada,there were tight controls put on the protesters and the Press at the recent summit–not to mention prosecutions in both Canada and Great Britain for “hate speech”.

    And, DRJ, the true American system to me is not the federal government or any civil government whatsoever. It is the web of traditions and principles acknowledging that our rights come from God and not King or Government and as passed down through the ages represented in the 10 Commandments, the Gospel, the Magna Carta, the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution that are the “system” worth protecting.

    The spectacle of our leaders taking part in a meeting that is, in itself, devoted to the antithetical of individual rights (managed trade) is sickening to me. It is equally sickening to see them strut about in a security cocoon of sufficient magnitude to displace (at least temporarily) and paralyze the efforts of the “plebians” to go about their own business. Neither the cause nor the men involved are worth one second of inconvenience to the honest citzenry trying to make a living in that city.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (86312b)

  20. You have a right to free speech but you don’t have a right to have the government provide you a park and a soapbox. You have a right to assemble but you don’t have a right to have the government provide you a banquet room with a baroque ensemble and open bar.

    The people of Australia who built the streets so they can go to work and take their kids to school don’t have any obligation to hand them over to a few nutcases who, having lost in the democratic process, try to distract and disrupt the officials the people have appointed to represent them.

    nk (a6ecc6)

  21. “The people of Australia who built the streets so they can go to work and take their kids to school don’t have any obligation to hand them over to a few nutcases who, having lost in the democratic process, try to distract and disrupt the officials the people have appointed to represent them.

    nk, I agree with you about this. However, it appears what is happening is that the areas that are being set aside for the protesters are so far from the summit that it prevents the leaders from seeing their people assemble and petition them regarding the issue of the summits. Also, the article that DRJ links to suggests that the security area is so large as to disrupt the “people of Australia” for the benefit of the “officials”.

    Insofar as officials representing us, I voted for President Bush to execute the laws passed by Congress–not to make unconstitutional trade deals that undermine our sovereignty and hand control of trade over to international bureaucrats.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (86312b)

  22. P.S. nk,

    I sort of liked your idea of One Ranger. Rangers usually used reason, persuasion and their brains and not merely brute force to stop rioting.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (86312b)

  23. Fishbane, I don’t buy your cloaked assertion that GWB really thought that he was speaking to OPEC, or really did confuse Austria with Australia. You try having cameras follow-you for several hours per day, fielding questions from an often hostile press, and having to give some sort of brief address at every podunk gathering of diplomats, and see how many times you botch words and names.

    When John Kerry says that the uneducated get stuck in Iraq, that may a slip of the tongue or a botched joke, but it is arguably important because it betrays a larger liberal stereotype about the background of men and women who serve in the military. When GWB says Austria instead of Australia or OPEC instead of APEC, it can probably be attributed to a simple slip of the tongue.

    Honestly, laugh at Bush’s alleged lack of intelligence all you want, but quit making such a big deal out of ordinary malapropisms.

    JVW (6a3590)

  24. Jerry Lynn, it is false that “Australia, Canada, Great Britain and the U.S. seem to be advancing in lockstep down the path of control of speech”.

    First of all, Australia, Canada and Great Britain don’t share the emphasis on freedom of speech that the United States long has. While they recognize the right in general, they have long been more willing to compromise it in furtherance of their other political goals. Your failure to recognize this shows to me that you don’t really value the amount of freedom we already have in the US.

    Secondly, the US is not itself “advancing” down any path to control of speech. There is literally no trend in the US toward more restrictions on speech. In fact, the contrary is in fact the trend. Why then do you claim otherwise without basis?

    Robin Roberts (1da0d5)

  25. JVW – Bush is alternately the dumbest President ever, or an evil genius, depending on which description fits their narrative. I thought they would be moving away from the dumbest President ever, after they managed to lose to the dumbest President ever, TWICE. Says a lot about their nuance.

    JD (f6a000)

  26. Jerri Lynn #s 21 & 22,

    Thank you for taking my comment in the spirit which I intended it.

    But I must confess that Texas Ranger Frank Hamer has been one of my heroes since I learned to read. By the time he killed Bonnie and Clyde he had killed 53 men in about a hundred individual gunfights and was wounded 23 times. They made real lawmen, or just say men, in those days. And which, as far as crime prevention goes, I see as very reasonable, persuasive and intelligent.

    nk (a6ecc6)

  27. Fishbane, I don’t buy your cloaked assertion that GWB really thought that he was speaking to OPEC, or really did confuse Austria with Australia

    I didn’t “cloak” my thoughts. I made them explicit. Scroll up and look. Once or twice (such as your immediate example talking about a non-president’s words) is one thing. Bush is a bumbling fool, the world sees him as such, and nothing is going to change this. He’s a disgrace. You may not like that, but other than the other 33% (or whatever it is this week) of Elvis sitings Bush supporters in the country, nobody buys it. They guy’s a boob.

    Not like I liked Clinton that much, either, and I know I took a poke at Daddy Bush. But at least they both had the awareness that stature on the world matters, and part of that is respect for people you meet with.

    Tell me you’re going to make a significant deal with someone that bumbles that much and nearly falls off the stage, and I’ll point you at a business that’s about to fail.

    fishbane (27af3f)

  28. Me: stature on the world matters

    Sorry, “on the world stage“.

    fishbane (27af3f)

  29. Robin,

    I gave you examples of where, in my opinion, speech is being unconstitutionally curbed in the United States. The most cogent example is MCain Feingold, which I cited in my response. The second was the tendency toward “free speech zones” mentioned by another poster. A third is the control placed on pastors in pulpit to prevent them from making “political” speech–a development which came about under LBJ in the 1960’s.

    Insofar as comparisons between the U.S., Canada, Australia and Great Britain, my point is that the freedom of speech that we have in this country was not invented by the writers of the Constitution. Thought on the subject already existed in English tradition. Our advantage was that, in our Constitution, we warned the Federal Govenment that it was not to tread on that right. My point about the other countries is that they sprung from the same well and it is troubling to see all four sister countries go in the direction of declining free speech rights.

    nk, my favorite Texas Ranger story is the one about how Leander McNelly stood down several hundred Banditos supplemented by Mexican troops and forced them to return 400 head of stolen cattle without a shot being fired. He did this with 13 or 14 Rangers.
    He had some STONES.

    Jerri Lynn Ward (bf2d8c)

  30. NK,

    Your comment about Frank Hamer reminded me of the book, I’m Frank Hamer, The Life of a Texas Peace Officer, published in 1968 by Captain Hamer’s family after his death. I have a copy given to me by a relative who served under Captain Hamer in the Texas Rangers. It sounds like you are already familiar with his career but you might be interested in this excerpt from the Introduction:

    “Frank Hamer possessed all the basic qualities of a great law officer. First, he was completely honest. His integrity was unimpeachable. Second, he was completely dedicated to his work. His work was his life; money, fame, and praise meant little him. Third, he was absolutely fearless. He participated in probably more gunfights than any other Ranger of this times, was wounded seventeen times, left for dead four times, and never once backed away from a fight. Fourth, he was highly intelligent. His penetrating understanding of the criminal mind made him one of the best detectives Texas has ever known. And, fifth, he never gave up.”

    Hamer was famous long before Bonnie & Clyde. I would have loved to meet him and hear some of those stories.

    DRJ (2afbca)

  31. Tell me you’re going to make a significant deal with someone that bumbles that much and nearly falls off the stage, and I’ll point you at a business that’s about to fail.

    If you want to believe that every successful businessman is urbane, polished, and well-spoken then that is your prerogative, but I can assure it is simply not the case. Nor is the corollary true: those with a slick exterior are not always the best and brightest businesspeople. While it would be perfect to have a President with a strong vision and the ability to articulate it, I would much rather have a President with big ideas and poor rhetorical skills than one with small ideas and a silver tongue.

    JVW (6a3590)

  32. DRJ #30,

    I have not read Frank Hamer’s biography but hope to eventually. I think I initially read about him in connection with Bonnie and Clyde and then from stories about the Texas Rangers. I believe that you have raised boys so you understand what catches our young bloodthirsty imaginations.

    nk (a6ecc6)

  33. he said “opec” instead of “apec”,

    I heard the tape. He corrected himself immediately and the audience laughed.

    MayBee (d08563)

  34. I’m here in Sydney. The government, in it’s wisdom, decided to make Friday a public holiday. So my employees are all off for a long weekend, and I get to pay for their day off, isn’t that nice? Of course, all the work that needs to be done by Monday is still here to be done, so I’m working the weekend doing it. That’ll teach me to be a capitalist oppressor, I suppose.

    Still, all will be forgiven if I can read that the police beat, hospitalized, or crippled some hippie scum. A couple of years ago the Italian cops actually shot one, is that too much to ask?

    If the police just stand there getting spat on and showered with rocks and do nothing then I’m going to be out of pocket and I’m going to be pissed.

    Amos (c406e9)

  35. All you fence haters and Bush haters miss one salient point. The police force in question is the New South Wales state police force, not the federal police (which is a small force). The New South Wales government is run by the Labor (akin to the Democratic) party.

    It is really good to see non-partisan ship in the matter of fence building.

    davod (5bdbd3)


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