My Pet Peeve (High School edition)
[Guest post by DRJ]
This Fox News article concerns important Constitutional issues, including free speech in educational settings and the church/state divide:
“A student who said she was told she wouldn’t get her diploma unless she apologized for a commencement speech in which she mentioned Jesus has filed a lawsuit alleging her free speech rights were violated. The school district contends its actions were “constitutionally appropriate.”
Erica Corder was one of 15 valedictorians at Lewis-Palmer High School in 2006. All were invited to speak for 30 seconds at the graduation ceremony. When it was Corder’s turn, she encouraged the audience to get to know Jesus Christ. Corder had not included those remarks during rehearsals.”
I suspect the last sentence above will end up having an impact on the outcome because the school has an interest in maintaining order. By spontaneously altering her remarks without notice to the school, this student presumably violated rules requiring pre-approval of valedictorian speeches. But I’m no Constitutional law scholar, so what do I know?
However, I know this: There’s no valid reason to have 15 valedictorians at one high school. This is just another example of how we’re dumbing down our schools amid feel-good educational policies that promote feelings over competition and achievement.
Don’t even get me started on banning tag.
Fifteen valedictorians?!!!!! As though graduations aren’t long enough.
lc (1401be) — 9/1/2007 @ 12:36 pmI thought a diploma signified educational achievement aot unquestioning obedience. No longer.
Truth to power, question authority, find your own path … all empty slogans, now; guess that’s all they ever were to those who chanted them.
ras (adf382) — 9/1/2007 @ 12:53 pmIf this happened in China, we’d clearly see the fascism
Feel free to boo when people say things you don’t like. But the government has no right to stop their speech. This statement didn’t interefere with order in any way.
Dustin (aba75b) — 9/1/2007 @ 1:07 pm15 valedictorians!
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 9/1/2007 @ 1:44 pmWhat’s next? 24 Homecoming Queens?
Has the First Amendment been abolished at this school?
Thomas Jackson (bf83e0) — 9/1/2007 @ 1:53 pmFrom the Mission Statement on their website:
Lewis-Palmer High School Vision is to
create an environment where the student focus is:
the value of learning rather than grades
create an environment where the parent focus is:
the value of a partnership that enhances understanding and support the school policies
the value of instilling a desire for education and knowledge rather than a grade
Hazy (d671ab) — 9/1/2007 @ 1:58 pmWhat’s next? 24 Homecoming Queens?
Another Drew (8018ee) — 9/1/2007 @ 2:29 pmWell, it would be nice to have one for each of the members of the Varsity Football squad.
Well…I’ll be on the other side of this one….as a teacher, I cannot let “free speech” go beyond appropriate behavior. In a school setting, the law does not allow for a student to say whatever they want to say, even when what they say may not be “inappropriate.” The school has a legal right to limit speech, and since she was giving a prepared speech, in which she was probably told to submit her remarks in advance, she violate rules that are legally set for students.
Finally, I have a question….what would be said here if she had given…say….remarks concerning how great Allah is, and that the USA was the evil of the world? Would her “free speech” rights be defended the same way? My only problem with anyone giving speeches or leading students at school and involving religion is: Who decides on the prayer? In this case, the child did, without knowledge of the teachers. Ok, maybe it can be excused….until 100 students do the same thing in class….or until the Muslim Student Committee decides they want the same privilage…..didn’t we just have an uproar about some Muslim Public School in New York, where the adults were deciding on the prayer?
Keep religion out of public schools, except to teach the historical significance of it….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 2:41 pmMaybe 15 students got straight As all through school?
alphie (99bc18) — 9/1/2007 @ 2:47 pmAlphie,
They probably did but high schools used to have a test or other tie-breaker to determine the top 2 spots. More and more schools are forgoing that to reduce competition.
DRJ (bfe07e) — 9/1/2007 @ 2:53 pmHazy,
I think there was a typo in the school’s Vision Statement. It was supposed to read: ” the value of partisanship that enhances understanding and support the school policies…”
reff,
So denying a student her diploma is an appropriate punishment for this horrific crime, one that disrupted education for no one at all?
Maybe a course on “keeping perspective” is in order, tho not for the kids in this case. Oh well, a little midnight basketball and she’ll be right as rain.
ras (adf382) — 9/1/2007 @ 3:06 pmYou could have fifteen 4.0 students, I suppose.
But if a student has completed all of the requirements to be graduated, requirements set by the state and the school board, the school district cannot simply change its mind because of some remarks it doesn’t like. They are hoping to intimidate this student, to get her to apologize, but all she has to do is call a lawyer, and the board will turn, poste haste. And if they don’t, the school district could find itself out many, many thousands of dollars.
Dana (c36902) — 9/1/2007 @ 4:39 pmBecoming valedictorian is a major plus in seeking university admissions: a school which sets up tiebreakers to select one valedictorian out of several with identical GPAs is a school inviting itself to be sued.
Dana (c36902) — 9/1/2007 @ 4:41 pm…what would be said here if she had given…say….remarks concerning how great Allah is, and that the USA was the evil of the world? Would her “free speech” rights be defended the same way?
Probably, but then again, had she made such remarks the school administrators would probably have defended her right to make those remarks. The problem is with her recommendation to get to know Jesus. It seems that all too often of late that the state must be separated only from the Christian church.
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 9/1/2007 @ 4:51 pmRas….I never once said anything about denying diplomas…anyway, for example, in Louisiana, that diploma cannot be denied for actions occurring after the last attendance day of school….however, what would an appropriate punishment be for a students blatant refusal to follow legally applied instructions at a graduation ceremony? Denying the diploma, in this case as I understand it, from the school, doesn’t deny the “state issued diploma” which would be the same punishment as in Louisiana….the child would not receive their diploma as a graduate of the high school, but as receiving the diploma from the state, as in a GED….they would not be listed as a graduate of the high school, and the high school would not be required to acknowledge the student as a graduate, nor convey honors as such….that is an appropriate punishment….
I’m a “rules” person…so, assuming she knew that she could not say things she did not tell she was going to say ahead of time, she is wrong, and there should be an appropriate punishment….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 4:53 pmOh, and Harry Arthur….you are probably right…so why aren’t those same rights being defended here? that is my point…
Who chooses the prayer??? It is exactly why NO ONE should be able to say what she said, or anything like it, at a public school graduation ceremony, or at a public school. Religion is for church, private homes, parochial schools, and the like….not at a public school, where all it can do is cause conflict.
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 4:56 pm1) It’s actually common for students to have GPAs above 4.0, through extra credit classes, honors classes, etc. And if a school principal is faced with a dozen or more students with GPAs of 4.1 or better, he probably will feel that they all deserve the honor. The top ten percent of my graduating class were honored at our graduation by special mentions and seating (one valedictorian and one salutatorian, however). Perusal of the numbers revealed that eleven percent of the students actually received the honor. And this was thirty years ago.
2) Her speech was overt evangelizing during an official ceremony. Had she thanked Jesus for what she thought was his help during her student career, I would probably be more sympathetic to her. But this went enough over the line that I think the school did need to do something.
I belong to a minority religion. Those of who who were raised, at least nominally, in the majority religion of this country (Christianity in its various forms) may not appreciate the effect such a speech can have to those who are not part of the majority religion. It does raise troubling images. In my grandparent’s home country, when they were the age of this girl, such a speech would have been accompanied by looks from the audience and faculty (assuming they were even able to be admitted as students to the school) that would require one of three responses: immediate withdrawl, preferably to the next town; preparation for immanent violence (ie, beatings); loud inquiries into the prelimaries for baptism. It does not happen in this country, which is one big reason my grandparents and their families came here–but that’s the historical baggage I carry, and it does cause me to have a different reaction to this girl’s speech and that of a hypothetical Muslim classmate demanding adherance to Islam from the audience: she’s a weak echo of “St.” Vincent Ferrer inciting riots in medieval Spain. Statements promoting the majority religion have a different context than those promoting a minority religion.
kishnevi (c7ce39) — 9/1/2007 @ 5:46 pmSo she is going from being a 4.0 Valedectorian to someone that got a GED. And there is someone that thinks this is an appropriate punishment ? Good God. Yup, I went there. What are we coming to?
JD (0c5b67) — 9/1/2007 @ 5:48 pm15 valedictorians–each limited to a 30 second speech. Most high school valedictorians couldn’t be interesting for more than 15 seconds tops—they should have gone to 30 valedictorians.
And as for reff “as a teacher, I cannot let speech go beyond appropriate behavior”–who the heck decides what’s appropriate?
I’m sorry, but I’m not going to let ill prepared normal school graduates set limits for speech–I don’t trust them. And they do have a hard time getting over their ownselves as it were.
She mentioned Jesus–did she say “let’s get right with Jesus” or some other evangelical sentiment–can’t tell from the short version. Reff thinks that’s not okay.
But reff would probably think it okay for the valedictorian to yell “Alluha Akbar” as she pulled the pin on her detonation vest. After all, that’s symbolic speech–and the 30 people or so slaughtered in the front row shouldn’t mind.
Mike Myers (2e43f5) — 9/1/2007 @ 6:08 pmWould everyone who strayed from the rehearsed text have their diploma kept from them? That is the question. It’s absurd to believe that any speaker who added “let me give a shout out to my homies” or some such thing would be denied his diploma.
j curtis (ecc9cc) — 9/1/2007 @ 6:16 pmIf j curtis and I apparently in agreement, it can only mean one of 2 things – 1) I am horribly wrong, or 2) j curtis is right for the 1st time ever. Each is implausible.
JD (0c5b67) — 9/1/2007 @ 7:18 pmAh, yes…Mike Myers….please tell me where in my posts did I ever sound like I agreed that the speaker should be able to yell anything….much less something even close to what you said….of course, that was right after you said that I, as a teacher, should not be able to decide on appropriate behavior….
Make up your mind…get on one side or the other, or tell us you can’t figure out this issue…
By the way, who decides appropriate behavior? Why, the laws do, of course. Those passed by people like you that say that students will go to school and follow certain guidelines, one of which is that there are certain things they cannot say when told not to by those in charge. Such as when a valedictorian in Louisiana wanted to talk about how a specific teacher in her school was not a good teacher, and she overcame his class to become a good student….or when another wanted to talk about a fight with a specifically named student in the graduating class and how that affected his school years….neither of these were allowed because of the same rules, that administrators have some say in what is given in valedictory addresses.
Now, I guess you think that “white power” statements in a class discussion about immigration would be appropriate as well….and by the way, I’m white, and that doesn’t belong…but, according to those who think freedom of speech should be unlimited in a high school setting, let’s just get Akon or 50 Cent to come and teach lyrics and prose in music….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 7:25 pmMike, P.S…go back and read where I wrote “Who decides on the prayer?” and see if you can see what I really think about this….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 7:26 pmIf the school district is hanging its hat on the fact that a portion of her speech was not approved ahead of time, it had better be damned sure the other Valedictorians adhered exactly to their preapproved scripts. Otherwise I see it as a free speech issue singling Erica out for a message they didn’t like. The Christhaters also need to get a sense of proportion – a 30 second speech OMG – the tyranny.
According to a blog I found, these were her words:
Here is the entire speech that caused all the trouble:
“Throughout these lessons our teachers, parents, and let’s not forget our peers have supported and encouraged us along the way. Thank you all for the past four amazing years. Because of your love and devotion to our success, we have all learned how to endure change and remain strong individuals. We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don’t already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him. And we also encourage you, now that we are all ready to encounter the biggest change in our lives thus far, the transition from childhood to adulthood, to leave (our school) with confidence and integrity. Congratulations class of 2006.”
daleyrocks (906622) — 9/1/2007 @ 7:32 pmdaleyrocks – She should be jailed. She is unfit for proper society.
I really cannot fucking believe that a teacher thinks it is appropriate punishment to turn a valedectorian into someone with a GED. I wonder how many GED’s get into top tier universities each year. Had she talked about Satan, or the Backstreet Boys, or Paris Hilton (all variations on the same concept) there would have been nary a whimper.
When did people become so easily offended? When did we allow this environment where people think there is some freedom from being offended?
JD (f44699) — 9/1/2007 @ 8:05 pmReff, I’ve known teachers all my life; two of my aunts were teachers for forty years in the Los Angeles School District; my sister is a retired high school master teacher; my sister in law is still active as a high school teacher after 35 plus years in the classroom; many of my high school classmates went on to be high school teachers; I’ve worked with the local K-12 school district (as a volunteer on one of their commissions) for 20 plus years. I have several friends and acquaintances who were either assistant superintendents or superintendents of major California school districts
Let’s just say that I believe I have good reason to be a lot less impressed with the abilities of the general run of teachers than you seem to be–and particularly of the ability of that general run of teachers to be arbiters of what is or is not appropriate speech.
Mike Myers (2e43f5) — 9/1/2007 @ 8:48 pmScarred for life, I would have been had I been forced to sit through the three sentences of her speech mentioning Jesus.
You hear worse shit on the nightly news. Get a grip people.
daleyrocks (906622) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:11 pmI gave one of the three student speeches at my high school graduation a long time ago. I was theoretically required to show it to the faculty advisor ahead of time. I didn’t. I was focused on other typical graduation related activities like partying and didn’t get the speech on paper until very late. They fucked up. They trusted me. Only minor controversies.
daleyrocks (906622) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:19 pm#7 A Homecoming Queen for each Varsity football player would be nice, but this school probably has 300-400 Varsity football players.
From the article:
The school district contends its actions were “constitutionally appropriate.”
Denying High School diplomas is in the Constitution?
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:28 pmOk, Mike…explain where that response came from, because it didn’t address a single thing that I posted, nor did it answer anything I asked you.
I never once commented on the abilities of the general run of teachers. Nor did I say that teachers are to be the arbiters of what is or is not appropriate speech. I did say that there are laws allowing the restrictions on speech in school, that there were rules concerning the fact that she had to submit her speech in advance (she did, then changed it), and that people like you write those laws/rules. I’ll even add to that the idea that your family/friends that you mentioned are involved in creating/applying those same rules. I’ll even bet that some of those superintendents are/were involved in that as well, and would have applied the same rules in their schools/systems as were applied here.
So, now, tell us….what do you really think? I don’t understand….as a person who must be an arbiter of appropriate speech every day (as a Middle School Administrator) I have to trust my teachers to think on their feet, because kids say things every day that must be dealt with. There are rules, local laws, state laws, Federal laws, Federal guidelines, State and U.S. Supreme Court decisions (including from this last term), parents, step-parents, guardians, social workers, and others….and each of these has an opinion about what is appropriate speech….and your opinion would be the ultimate authority on what that might be….
And, teachers and administrators have to make these decisions every day…they tried to here, and the student violated the rules anyway….so, please, tell us what we should do…..and, after telling us all about the outstanding people in your world who are educators, I wouldn’t be so quick to say what you have, because it would be easy to interpret that none of those people would be good arbiters of appropriate speech either….that must have been the “reason” you mentioned…..they too must be in that general run of teachers that you are so fond of talking about….
Oh, yes….and my lay-person’s knowledge of the Supreme Court rulings that involve religion and schools leads me to think that what the young lady in question said in her speech is protected speech in a school setting, i.e., it was said by a student, and initiated by a student. The problem is not the words of the speech; the problem is that there were rules governing the speech, and she broke those rules. Ask you superintendent friends if there are rules involving the commencement addresses by students in their systems, and you will find there are, and you’ll be surprised at the rules you will discover.
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:36 pmIt’s impossible for teenagers not to be silly but the schools should not sink to their level. The young lady performed what would be considered a pompous, self-important and self-indulgent act if done by an adult, but is exactly what should be expected from an eighteen-year old. I hope the judge who hears the case remembers his teenage years and after ordering the school to give her her diploma fines both sides equally a nominal amount for being public nuisances and a waste of the court’s time.
nk (a6ecc6) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:41 pmSo you really think that denying a diploma and making her someone with a GED is appropriate?
JD (a61287) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:46 pmMy last one was to reff.
If this girl has to sue to get her diploma, the school district should be charged with misappropriation of funds.
JD (a61287) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:56 pmHuh?
It’s outrageous she was punished for mentioning Jesus even if they weren’t in her initial remarks.
A person should be able to ad lib about their religion if they want to and not be attacked by their school or denied opportunity. I admire what she did and support her without reservation.
But to call what you suggest a stretch doesn’t begin to describe it.
Christoph (92b8f7) — 9/1/2007 @ 9:58 pmI learned a long time ago that I don’t get involved in what a district decides an “appropriate” response is to actions of a child. There are too many variables. As I have said elsewhere on this string, there are rules, and “other people” make them. However, I have always believed that one diploma says the same thing as another, so, since she got her high school diploma, and they cannot take away her transcript, I don’t personally think she has been harmed in any serious way. If I were the superintendent, I would have found another way to deal with this, but, that would also depend on the rules in effect. I was supposed to miss my own high school graduation because I missed the “mandatory” practice session, and I was a top 5 grad, so, it was a big deal, especially to my parents. The system made a decision to allow me to walk when they learned I was having dinner with the Governor of Louisiana on that day, so they gave me my diploma; the alternative was that I would have received a “GED” type diploma, which my own research told me meant the same thing: I would be a high school graduate, eligible for college, and my transcript would not be changed. We are having battles in the courts in Louisiana now because apparently just walking across the stage is more important to some people than actually having a diploma in the case when they do walk across the stage. And, in those cases, there are people who think that the idea of their “walking across the stage” is ok, even though they didn’t earn the diploma. Once again, other people make the rules, and teachers/administrators have to follow them.
I wonder what would have happened if she had just given her prepared speech, and told every student she hugged that night “I hope you know Jesus Christ like I do”……
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/1/2007 @ 10:10 pm“It is exactly why NO ONE should be able to say what she said, or anything like it, at a public school graduation ceremony, or at a public school. Religion is for church, private homes, parochial schools, and the like….not at a public school, where all it can do is cause conflict.”
You do realize that we (in this country) have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion?
Lord Nazh© (899dce) — 9/1/2007 @ 10:29 pmA religion where you can’t talk about it in public isn’t worth much. Or rather the government that would institute such a policy isn’t worth much.
Sounds a lot like Communist China or former Communist Russia.
Christoph (92b8f7) — 9/1/2007 @ 10:40 pmIt does keep the trbal warfare down to a minimum, though, Christoph.
alphie (99bc18) — 9/1/2007 @ 10:53 pmAmerica has been racked with tribal warfare and, I assume you mean by extension, resulting death?
Communist China and the former Soviet Union on the other hand, are NOT overwhelmed with this alleged “tribal warfare” and instead are/were death-free zones?
Unless you count the 100+ million citizens murdered by both ATHEIST regimes in the last century, which seems to eclipse somewhat the death toll in the sweeping religious wars, which ravaged the United States during the same time period.
How do you exmplain that?
Christoph (92b8f7) — 9/1/2007 @ 10:59 pmRead the story of the Mormons, Christoph.
There’s a reason they kept heading West.
alphie (99bc18) — 9/1/2007 @ 11:34 pmComment by daleyrocks
Of course, they weren’t scarred for life, but I don’t think that’s the point. I wouldn’t have been offended by her speech, but I am offended by her behavior, doing an end run around school officials. Why didn’t she take a stand before she gave her speech? Because she might not have gotten her own way? Now she gets a lawyer involved.
Erica Corder is finding out there are consequences for being a liar and a sneak. It should be a good life lesson for her, but I doubt she’ll get it.
lc (1401be) — 9/2/2007 @ 4:23 amreff,
And sometime, the rules and/or their application are perfectly idiotic.
lc,
What lies? What sneaking? I thought she was on a stage addressing a crowd.
Pablo (99243e) — 9/2/2007 @ 5:20 amShe was told to submit her speech in advance. She submitted a different speech. Why?
She is being asked to apologize for her end run around school policy, not for loving Jesus.
lc (1401be) — 9/2/2007 @ 5:26 amRight, not for lying or sneaking, but for defiance of authority. I’d defy them some more.
Pablo (99243e) — 9/2/2007 @ 5:31 amThe best story about a high school graduation speech that I ever heard involved an African American girl who went up on stage at her Fresno, California high school graduation, took her diploma and said, “I’m Tawana Bradley (I’ve forgotten her actual name) and I’m the first person in my family to graduate from high school and f@#k you all!”
They didn’t take her diploma away from her or give her a GED–but for years after that school district administrators spoke of “Tawana Bradley moments”.
Mike Myers (2e43f5) — 9/2/2007 @ 6:44 amWhy is it so hard to select one valedictorian? When I graduated almos 20 years ago, we had 15 students who had perfect 4.0 averages (we didn’t give higher averages for AP classes, extra credit, etc and an A was only 94-100, so no skating by in the low 90s to get an A). They took the average of our number grades (100, 99, 98, etc) for each class to determine class rankings – the highest average was valedictorian, etc.
Gee, who knew I should have been whining because my 98.764 grade average was only good enough for #5 in my graduating class? That was still good enough to be the highest ranked female, to graduate in the top 1% of my class and for a free ride to the university that I wanted to attend.
Alia (2ba62d) — 9/2/2007 @ 8:41 amRead the story of the Mormons, Christoph.
There’s a reason they kept heading West.
This is your best example of “religious warfare” in the US? Come now …
Surely you know the facts of the matter are more “nuanced”?
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 9/2/2007 @ 9:00 amHaving now read the entire text of her speech in context I can honestly say, as an evangelical Christian, that I agree with reff. This young lady stepped far over the line. And, oddly, I think her comments ended up being counterproductive, at least as far as an example of Christian conduct.
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 9/2/2007 @ 9:03 amYeah where her freedom of speech anyway the same that allows someone to swear and say nasty four letter words in their movies or run around naked like the idiots from PETA are always doing and frankly the principal should be made to wear a pink tutu to schools let him get humiliated
krazy kagu (fb44c4) — 9/2/2007 @ 10:58 amLord Nazh: “You do realize that we (in this country) have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion?” And what is exactly freedom of religion, if it is practiced by someone on someone who doesn’t want it practiced on them? See, free speech ends where my ears begin, and since anyone in that audience who went there just for the purpose of watching the graduation got more than they asked for. So, when does freedom of religion become freedom to say what you want, when you want??? And, by the way, it was a public school ceremony, not a church; it was paid for by tax dollars, not church funds; and it was attended by people who did not intend or expect to be at a church service.
But, I digress…..and I’ll ask again: What if she had said the Muslim prayer for killing the infidel–would you have the same response???
Pablo: Remember to include the part of the rules/regulations that you say are idiotic when upheld….include the part that the rules were made by people just like you….and no, I’m not saying you are idiotic; quite the opposite, you are probably very intelligent. And the rules/regulations you say are idiotically applied were written by people just like you. In fact, the Supreme Court Justices that say that there should not be religion in a public school setting are probably just as smart as you are.
Also, note my statement that says that her speech is probably not a violation of the separation of religion and public schools, since it was a speech by a student initiated by a student, which the court has held was acceptable. Her problem is that he violated the rules of giving the speech, and the Supreme Court has ruled many times that high school students don’t have total free speech rights, that those rights can be curtailed by administrators/systems.
So, for you as well….see my question above, and apply it without the idiocy….see what result you get….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/2/2007 @ 6:29 pmSorry reff, free speech doesn’t end where your ears begin, it ends when it hurts you.
If freedom of speech only counts until you hear it, it isn’t freedom is it?
Lord Nazh© (899dce) — 9/2/2007 @ 7:35 pmActually, it does end where I begin, because when I’m not required to hear it, I don’t have to. But, when I’m in a captive audience, that is the point in which I’m not required to listen to your free speech, especially when there are rules in place, set by someone else besides the speaker or me, that protect my ears.
See, this is what everyone here is missing….that speech is not protected when and where there are reasonable rules in place that restrict that speech….
And, finally, look at what you wrote again….that free speech ends when it hurts me….thank you for making my point for me….see, there were rules in place here, and she broke the rules….everyone is hurt when reasonable rules are broken because someone thinks they have some free speech right to break them…..and none of this has anything to do with religion….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/2/2007 @ 9:50 pmGeez Reff,
Paul from Fl (ae01cb) — 9/3/2007 @ 6:36 amShe only acknowledged her religon. She didn’t include it into an exhortation to blow up the school. Had someone said something similar about getting to know the word of Allah, said with the same gentle implication, I know I wouldn’t be freaked out about it. But the fact of the matter is there is a certain amount of self centered,self importance that this age group is imbued with. They are going to make bone head moves or say silly things. But for the most part at graduation they are legal adults with legal rights. I am amazed after all these years that School Boards haven’t understood that crap happens and we have to move on. Did she commit a crime? Nope. you didn’t like what she said? Nope. Too bad. Can you voice your opinion immediately after her statement? You betcha. Did anyone, in all the years of Graduation ever think to publicly, on the spot to disclaim little pranks as that? I doubt it. Here is an example of what every School Board President should say before presenting the Student Speakers
“While we have made every effort to inform our student speakers of the policies of the School Board,and the importance of todays ceremony, the following statements are representative of the Student Speakers and their Families and are not necessarily the view of the XYZ School system.”
The statement with tense changes should be made afterwards in the remarks before proceeding on. The fact that the families are being represented should be impressed upon the families BEFORE graduation day so that the really important discussion (The one between the students and their families) takes place about their planned remarks.
Thanks to dailyrocks, #24 above, she is reported to have said:
…We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don’t already know Him personally, I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice He made for you, so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with Him. …
Sorry, Paul, but this is a bit more than “…she only acknowledged her religion.” This is clearly proselytizing. Given that she dishonestly misprepresented her remarks to the school administrators, as an evangelical Christian myself who happens to agree totally with everything she said, I find her actions over the line and do not agree that she had the right to express herself in this manner to this particular audience.
Having said that, she clearly has the freedom to make this same statement to any of her classmates or teachers on an individual basis, whether or not it makes them uncomfortable, and whether on the school grounds or during school hours. She does not have the freedom to create a disturbance or disrupt school functions. On the other end of the spectrum, neither are schools “religion free zones” as reff at least seems to imply. There is a balance and the school administration is responsible for policies that recognize that balance. I believe that is what they were attempting in this case.
This was a captive audience that was there to see their friends and relatives graduate. I would be just as disappointed if this was a completely non-religious political rant against Mr Bush and the war in Iraq. It’s simply not the time nor the place for these types of statements. To suggest that there be no restrictions on one’s freedoms, at the very least voluntary, is to confuse freedom with license.
I’ve been treated to similar short lectures at school functions by administrators who simply felt they needed to criticize SOL (Standards of Learning) requirements imposed by Virginia on local school districts or who felt that funding for various of their favorite subjects, generally in the arts, was inadequate. My problem is not the sentiment, with which I might or might not agree, but with the chosen forum.
This is not all that different from going to hear a concert and having to sit through the political opinions of the entertainer. Many of us conservatives have opined that they should “…shut up and sing.” I think the same advice is appropriate here: “…shut up and graduate.”
Harry Arthur (b318a5) — 9/3/2007 @ 7:49 amPaul…I personally don’t have any problem with what she said, so I’ll get that out of the way. Are teenagers silly at times? Yes, but what she said wasn’t silly. Is she a legal adult with legal rights at graduation? No, they are not, and that is where you miss my point completely. Could I voice my opinion immediately afte she did? Not in the same setting, because that would not have been permitted. Was her action a little prank? No, it was planned and hidden from those who set her guidelines. And, reading your “disclaimer” would see to me to mean that there would be no restrictions on what was about to be said, which really puts free speech on the spot….
Ok, now that I got all that out….public schools are not places were “anything goes” is a reasonable set of guidelines. Once things are done, said, they cannot be taken back. The reasons that the Supreme Court has ruled that students do not have total free speech guidelines includes the idea that the entire group can be “protected” from the actions of a few. Education is somewhat mandatory in all states, so, the public schools have more restrictions on them involving free speech and freedom of religion than home schooling or private/parochial schools do, because in part of that mandatory status.
Finally….you mentioned that if she had spoken of Allah in a gentle way, it would not have been a big deal. No, probably not….but, what would the response have been had she told the world that she had found Allah, and his teaching were in contrast with the laws of America, and concluded her remarks with the Muslim prayer for the death of all infidels? That too, under Islam, is a gentle response to the wisdom of Allah….guess at that point the “Idiots” who wrote the rules for her privilage to speak would be put in their places….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/3/2007 @ 9:53 amReff,
Paul from Fl (ae01cb) — 9/3/2007 @ 4:02 pmI guess we should simply remove the validictory speeches from Graduation ceremonies. These children are just too dangerous to trust with a microphone…..yeeeeesh.
Ok, Sarcasm off.I find it remarkable that there seems to be no other course of action here other than retribution from the School Board.
I want to thank all the liberals past and present for the pile of crap that our education system has turned into.
I suggest that the School Board simply write approved series of speeches that the children can give and therefore preclude exposing polite society to notions of religon,embarassing the School Board and otherwise express independent thought.
Dang, a knee-jerk reaction….seems like something a liberal would do…
Ok, Sarcasm off.
No, wait….back on….no other course of action from the board??? So, we have rules, and someone breaks them and there should be no response??? Retribution??? And, in your next line, you blame liberals???
No, don’t stop valedictory addresses….have the rules that are appropriate, especially those involving Supreme Court rulings, and enforce them. Make it clear to the students that it is not a time for “free speech” but a time for congratulations and thanks, and great stories of overcoming adversity….and have them submit their speeches in advance….
Maybe it is time for prepared speeches to be put on video, which makes the problem moot since it can be a “canned” speech…and cut if it violates the rules….
But, it is also time for everyone to understand there are rules here that need to be followed, and if we don’t agree with the rules, it is public school, and people do have input….get the rules changed.
This type of thing happens every year, and these same discussions come out, and nothing changes….because those kids graduate….and the next group doesn’t know what is about to happen….get involved locally (I have) and see what can/should be done….
reff (4e3fcd) — 9/3/2007 @ 7:25 pmI’m sure Oral Roberts University will be willing to overlook the fact that she has a GED in light of her oh-so-apparent zeal.
/sarc
There are worse things than having a GED, namely
1) Being a moron with a diploma.
Leviticus (68eff1) — 9/4/2007 @ 7:11 amI’ve read every comment, made one or two, and then the thought occured to me: why would we care what any 18 year old has to say, predominantly to other 18 year olds, about any topic whatsoever?
Perhaps we ought to limit graduation speeches to … who knows? Who really has anything useful to say to a bunch of 18 year olds and their friends and relatives any way? Maybe we ought to hear some nice music, watch them walk down the isle and shorten the whole experience to a mere two or three hours.
/cynicism
Harry Arthur (5af33b) — 9/4/2007 @ 8:21 amMiss Teen South Carolina Я Us
Now that everybody has had their laugh at Lauren Upton, Miss Teen South Carolina, over her botched answer to the question: “Why is it that 1/5th of Americans can’t find the US on a map?”, why don’t we take a more serious look at this fiasco? You know, it is altogether possible that many of the folks who were watching her reply on Youtube are part of that fraction of Americans who indeed can’t find their own country on a map. Start mentioning other countries and I’ll bet that number skyrockets. So Ms Upton has a lot of company. Why is it that in the most advanced nation on earth, so many Americans are so lacking in knowledge? You can lay the blame at the foot of our education system.
We have seen this decline in the quality of our education for decades. Yes, we knew we had problems in our secondary schools, what with gangs, drugs, pupils who couldn’t speak English, as well as a host of other social ills that children brought into school with them. Yet, we still deluded ourselves into thinking we had the greatest university system in the world, a system where students from all over the world wanted to come and study. We had our prestigious institutions like Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, UC Berkeley, and so on. Besides, the kids who could not or would not make it in high school were weeded out, leaving us with serious students in the universities, right? Perhaps, but I believe strongly that our universities are not turning out satisfactory products. In fact, our corporations have been telling the universities for years now that 4 year graduates are not prepared for the workplace. In addition, the US now has to import doctors and scientists from other countries because we can’t seem to develop them at home.
As for the secondary schools, admittedly, you can’t blame the teachers and administrators for the fact that they have to deal with dysfunctional students from dysfunctional families. Yet, it seems that secondary schools are now in the business of trying to build children’s self-esteem and respect for others at the cost of teaching traditional subjects. In my state of California, particularly in Los Angeles, a large portion of the students are children of illegal aliens, whose language skills are not only limited in English, but in Spanish as well. This slows down learning for all the kids.
My chief complaint, both in secondary school and college is that schools have adapted to these challenges by resorting to “political correctness”. Their primary concerns now seem to be teaching the kids to respect each other, a noble idea, but not necessarily the chief goal of schools. What this translates into is educating our kids at an early age about sex, gay issues and other controversial issues, such as how America has victimized other countries and peoples. In California, we see every Latino issue presented from the activist Latino point of view. So let’s fly the Mexican flag, celebrate Mexican Independence Day-and downplay everything about our own country and civilization-lest we exclude or otherwise offend our Mexican/Mexican-American children. Assimilation? Forget it. That’s an outmoded concept. Guess who the biggest losers will be under this mentality- Latino kids, that’s who.
A few months back, Boulder High School (Colorado) invited a panel of misfits from California to lecture the entire student assembly (attendance required) on the benefits of experimenting with drugs and various forms of unprotected sex, both heterosexual and homosexual. Many parents were outraged, and the news spread across the nation, largely thanks to Bill O’Reiily. Defiantly, the school stood its ground, defended the event and scheduled the misfit panel back next year for a repeat performance.
Not surprisingly, in the midst of all these sidelights, the three Rs, reading, writing and Arithmetic are being largely forgotten.
In addition, since 9-11, we have now placed Islam under the umbrella of political correctness. In some schools, teachers decree “Islamic month”, in which all students become Muslims for a month, take Muslim names, study the Koran and follow Islamic customs-whether or not the parents consent or object.
Then, after a kid has survived all that, they enter university life and now fall under the tutelage of radical left-wing professors, many of whom are left-overs from the 1960s, once long-haired protesters, now people walking around with PHDs, which usually means they have been educated out of the last ounce of common sense they were born with. They are now teaching in universities all over the nation, generally preaching the idea that America is an evil, racist nation that has screwed the rest of the world in expanding its imperialism. Who are the good guys in their world view? It used to be the Soviet Union-until that empire collapsed under its own weight, leaving their leftist American supporters in an embarrassed silence. But there is always Cuba, with its dictator, Fidel Castro and its martyred executioner, Che Guevara (actually an Argentine) to set the example for the rest of us.
Currently, the heroes/victims du jour are the Palestinians, those peaceful, loveable victims of Israeli oppression. As for the Islamic terrorists who blow themselves and others up with bombs, kidnap and behead innocents and call for the imposition of Shariah law over the whole world, you won’t hear a peep against them from our elite left-wing professoriat. To do so would bring down cries of racism and Islamophobia against the offending party. So now, on countless campuses, Jewish students have to study in an atmosphere of anti-Semitism, where every semester witnesses an anti-Israel protest sponsored by the local Muslim Student Union with radical imams shouting anti-Israel, anti-Jewish, anti-American epithets, all under the banner of free speech. Any criticism of the above is regarded as anti-Muslim and thus, morally equivalent to the hate speech practiced by the Muslim speakers. I know what I am talking about. I have witnessed all this myself at the University of California at Irvine, where I teach part-time. Meanwhile, state universities, like the University of Michigan at Dearborn, are installing foot baths for the benefit of its Muslim students-courtesy of the taxpayers of Michigan. Separation of Church and State? That’s only for Christians.
So after 12 years of this kind of education at the secondary level, followed by 4 years of college, what kind of product are we turning out? Apparently, not a very good product. As I stated above, our doctors and scientists are largely coming from overseas. In addition, we seem to be depending on our immigrants for language skills-we are not doing well in turning out bi-lingual or multi-lingual Americans. It does seem, however, that our young college-educated folks are quite well-versed in issues of sexuality, victimization and the ills of the US.
As for Ms Upton, she is just symptomatic of the larger problem. Maybe her moment of embarrassment will help shine the spotlight on a problem that affects our entire society. In a sense, we are all Miss Teen South Carolina.
gary fouse
fouse, gary c (3734d6) — 9/4/2007 @ 8:45 pmfousesquawk
She didn’t just “mention” Jesus, she implored the audience to find him in their lives. Advocating they explore her religious beliefs is selling something, not just declaring her own convictions. She did not get a GED (I can believe anyone actually thought that). A GED just to certifies you passed an equivalency exam, you do not have transcripts of grades or performance. She still technically had a diploma along with her records. She was only denied the piece of paper that is printed as her diploma. That paper is only a token of her achievement.
NYJ (00318a) — 9/6/2007 @ 3:32 pmhow can someone be punished for their belifs dosent that go agenst the 1st admendment? Thats retarde!!!
ME PHS (5d5ab0) — 12/14/2007 @ 12:10 pmsorry typo last word “retarded” not “retatde” 🙂
ME PHS (5d5ab0) — 12/14/2007 @ 12:12 pm