Virginia Counties deal with Illegal Immigration
[Guest post by DRJ]
More local governments are adopting policies that deal with illegal immigration:
“Resolutions to deny a potentially wide range of public services to illegal immigrants have thrust two northern Virginia counties into the nation’s immigration debate. The measures passed in July in Prince William and Loudoun counties join a flurry of recent efforts by local governments nationwide that believe the federal government has not done enough to stop illegal immigration.
But while other jurisdictions have focused largely on landlords and employers who knowingly rent to and hire illegal immigrants, the Virginia resolutions take a more direct approach. The National Association of Counties says the two counties are the first it knows of to pass measures aimed at denying services.
They probably will not be the last. Officials in several other Virginia counties have said they plan to follow suit, and the sponsor of the Prince William resolution says he has gotten e-mails from all over the country praising his efforts.”
The AP reporter who wrote this article attempted to personalize the legislation by leading with this …
“Ines Olivia Martinez wonders if her family will be denied medical care. Even her mentally disabled 13-year-old son has been anxiously pointing out police cars amid fears of a local crackdown on illegal immigrants.”
… despite the fact that, later in the same article, the reporter notes this legislation will not affect emergency medical care, K-12 education, or food stamps, and it’s unclear whether it will affect uninsured health care, libraries and parks.
There’s also this nugget:
“Critics say limiting access to facilities would make the counties feel like police states for everyone who sets foot there.
“Everywhere people step, they have to show their documents and prove their right to be there,” said John Trasvina, president and general counsel of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund.”
Having to produce documents to show entitlement makes this a police state? I have to produce documents every time I cash a check or buy alcohol, and if I used tobacco products I’d have to produce documents then, too.
We must already live in a police state.
I count eleven paragraphs in the AP article that show what bad things could result from the passage of these anti-illegal-immigrant policies.
I count one paragraph giving the other side of the story.
So is the AP biased? Or is it considered balance when you have eleven paragraphs on one side and one paragraph on the other?
Alan (f1706f) — 8/25/2007 @ 12:29 pmONLY The folks that are illegal and those that cater to them Have anything to fear. and that is only that they will have to Do the penalty for thier little act of defiance. The Murderers and Rapists like the ones in Oregon,Washington State and New Jersey Should get the Death Penalty. The Federal Funding should be with held From all State and local jurisdictions that flaunt the law By setting up Sanctuaries For The Illegal Alien Population.
David Sullivan (3e4986) — 8/25/2007 @ 12:46 pmAlan,
There does seem to be an undue emphasis in the article on inflammatory rhetoric by the opponents of this measure, especially the last paragraph:
Illegal immigrants have to fight for their rights even though they are illegal? That’s backwards thinking. Fight for amnesty or fight for an easier legalization process, but you can’t fight for the right to stay here even though you’re illegal.
DRJ (bfe07e) — 8/25/2007 @ 1:33 pm“We came to better ourselves as human beings because we also want a better life for our children,” said Rocio Martinez-Lopez, 35, Martinez’s sister. “People say, `We’re going to another state.’ I tell them, `No, we have to fight.’”
Its funny because this is what I (and a ton of other citizens) also think.
We too want a better life for our children. But that ‘better’ life is collapsing from an undue burden put on it by those here illegally (health care, infrastructure, public services) yet taking advantage of our own government’s failure.
And yet, even if my state is overrun with illegal immigrants, I’m not going to run to another state either – I’m going to stay and fight.
The above quote begs the question: if they are willing to fight for a better life, why weren’t they willing to fight on their own soil against their own government who greedily sucked up, and continue to, the better life from millions?
Dana (6994d5) — 8/25/2007 @ 2:03 pmBingo Dana!
The illegals will fight the American government, but they won’t fight the real problem – the Mexican government.
Perfect Sense (b6ec8c) — 8/25/2007 @ 2:19 pmThe Immigration laws did not become broken overnight. Our country´s first Immigration laws were in the 1800´s. They were exclusionary, meant to drive out the Chinese via the Chinese Labor Act. The next target were the Southern and Eastern Europeans via the 1924 Immigration laws. At the same time these laws were imposed, the US established various Bracero programs. Big business sought to exclude the Eastern-Southern Europeans while bringing in numerous workers from South of the Border. Why? Because they were easy to exploit, kept to themselves and went home when the harvesting season was over. Study history and you know why we are in the mess we are in today. For the past 20 years, the immigration laws have gone unenforced as Big Business continued to bring in workers. Yet, today, all you write about is the “evil illegal immigrants” and their cost. Bernanke has said the 12M have helped us avert a Recession. Comptroller Strayhorn said the Revenue in Sales Tax minus the cost of their benefits is $17B a year in TX alone. Sure its easy to blame the 12M, but look at the big picture. Understand the issues and stop blaming one group.
I support secure borders, employer sanctions and a path to citizenship for the 12M here, especially those who have worked here, contributing for so long. We need to bring them out of the shadows, deport the felonious criminals and put reason and logic back into our enforced immigration laws. To mass deport 12M would be devastating to our country and to the families who have helped us.
http://immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com/2007/08/operation-wetback-all-over-again.html
Dee (18f04c) — 8/25/2007 @ 2:39 pm“To mass deport 12M would be devastating to our country …”
That may be true, but it is simply speculation on your part (and others that argue this).
Secure the borders, enforce the laws we already have. If those illegals want to become citizens, let them; the legal way.
I realize that Patterico wants to deport the ‘criminals’ first and I have no problem with that, but at the same time we should be looking at a way to get the rest of the criminals to pay their debt for their crimes if they truly want to be citizens.
Lord Nazh© (899dce) — 8/25/2007 @ 2:55 pm“Yet, today, all you write about is the “evil illegal immigrants” and their cost. ”
First of all, that is not all that is written in regard to this issue. There is an abundace of writing and protest regarding the culpability of our federal government in their failure to act accordeing to the laws on the books.
There is no doubt the 12M have done what most of us, were we desperate, done. But there is always a risk to breaking any law and there are always consequences and those have been knowingly entered into. If there is a complete disregard from the get-go and that law is free to break, what makes another law enforceable?
However, the question still remains: if you are willing to fight for a better life in a foreign land, what keeps the masses from fighting in their homeland for an economic foothold? Revolutions are a great and effective means for a population to free themselves from tyrannical oppressors. Why, gee, I believe even European and America’s own history will testify to this.
Dana (6994d5) — 8/25/2007 @ 3:10 pm“It broke my heart,” the 41-year-old Mexico City native said of the measure. “We were all thinking there would be an amnesty” declared by the federal government.
Yeah, her and a few million of her friends in the “La Raza” crowd, and perhaps one highly-placed occupant of the White House.
fourpointer (5f8efa) — 8/25/2007 @ 3:10 pmFunny, I don’t seem to remember intructing my state and local elected officials to earmark chunks of my state income taxes and my already too high and increasing property taxes for services to illegal immigrants. Are there boxes to check, like on federal forms, like do you want a dollar from this return to go to pay for educating illegal immigrants or things like that?
Just asking?
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/25/2007 @ 4:18 pmWe must already live in a police state.
DRJ, I’m glad to see the light is finally dawning.
But that ‘better’ life is collapsing from an undue burden put on it by those here illegally (health care, infrastructure, public services) yet taking advantage of our own government’s failure.
It’s not collapsing from the weight of those here illegally. It’s collapsing from the weight of all those here legally, by birth or otherwise, who get to collect off of government programs like Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, FEMA grants, business subsidies, and all the rest of the government spending schemes. Out of all the government programs, almost none are actually necessary or appropriate. And the amount of money spent on citizens and legal aliens far exceeds what is spent on illegal aliens. But it policitally costs when a public official complains about the amounts spent on citizens, which can motivate them to vote against him.
Any significance to the fact that these two counties are but one county away from the District of Criminals Columbia.
kishnevi (2fb159) — 8/25/2007 @ 4:45 pmAny significance to the fact that these two counties are but one county away from the District of Criminals Columbia.
(NB, to make the above intelligble: the overstrike HTML on “criminals” vanished into cyberspace when I hit the post button, but the missing question mark is my fault alone.)
kishnevi (2fb159) — 8/25/2007 @ 4:48 pmWhat I will never understand about those who favor our open-border policy will always talk about illegal immigrants’ contribution to the economy but never, ever address the costs they bring in terms of crime, welfare, and education (not just money costs, of course–look at Los Angeles, among other places, where black parents are complaining that their English-speaking children are getting the equivalent of half a day’s education because everything has to slow down to accommodate all the Hispanic students who have only a pitiful comprehension of English). What the hell is up with that? How can anyone say that illegals do more good than harm, while totally ignoring the harm they cause?
Alan (587043) — 8/25/2007 @ 8:05 pmKishnevi: Don’t illegals pay a lot less in taxes to support those programs than do the legal aliens and the American-born citizens? That’s another factor in the burden that illegals impose.
Alan (587043) — 8/25/2007 @ 8:10 pmAnd the amount of money spent on citizens and legal aliens far exceeds what is spent on illegal aliens. But it policitally costs when a public official complains about the amounts spent on citizens, which can motivate them to vote against him.
Thank you for the blinding statements of the obvious Kishnevi. Since cutting programs can hurt politicians at the voting booth and illegal aliens at least theoretically don’t vote, what portion of the programs you mention are accounted for by illegal aliens. Can it be quantified?
If it can be made a pocketbook issue as well as a security issue, I’m not convinced how many of the open borders types will continue to be so open once they realize how open they are with their wallets. Liberals are notoriously stingy with charity.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/25/2007 @ 8:11 pmAlan–look at it this way. What you pay (as the portion of your overall tax burden) for services rendered to illegals is much less than you pay for the services rendered to citizens and legals. Just look at how much of your paycheck, and see how much is deducted for SocSec/Medicare. My paystub says I pay roughly 7 dollars for SS/Med. for every 9 dollars of regular Fed income tax. That’s almost half the taxes deducted, for programs that don’t pay anything to illegals (at least in theory).
Also, remember that the primary burden of paying for the services rendered to illegals is borne at the state and local level, and much of the revenue for those entities comes from sales taxes. In some states, those that don’t have income taxes, the primary source of tax revenue is sales tax and property tax. Illegals pay sales taxes, at the very least. They don’t get to skip around paying no taxes at all.
kishnevi (2dbd61) — 8/25/2007 @ 8:20 pmI suppose it depends on where you live, Kishnevi. I live 3-4 hours from the border and my local property taxes (that pay for K-12 schools, hospital, local community college, and city/county government) have increased 8-10 fold in the past 15 years, after adjustment for inflation.
The bulk of that increase is due to increased costs attributable to immigrants, most of which are illegal. Their share of sales taxes don’t begin to pay for what it costs to provide the social services they use, nor does it take into account the degradation in those services that affects everyone.
For instance, when our son broke his leg, we had to wait at the ER for 6 hours before he was xrayed and treated. Why? Because of the backlog from immigrants who use the ER for basic medical care. The triage rules provide “first come, first serve” unless your injuries are life-threatening, and a broken leg isn’t considered life-threatening. Thirty years ago when I first moved here, the ER wait was mere minutes. Not now, and that applies to every aspect of our lives. The schools are crowded, the roads are crowded, social services are stretched to the limit, and yet our quality of life has decreased. We do have nice landscaping, though.
DRJ (bfe07e) — 8/25/2007 @ 10:14 pmSay what?
Border Patrol Chief rejects mission against aliens, drugs
A Border Patrol chief at one of the nation’s most dangerous Southwest border crossings says the agency’s mission doesn’t include apprehending illegal aliens or seizing narcotics — perplexing front-line agents and angering a congressional critic of illegal immigration.
jeff (b6d2cc) — 8/25/2007 @ 11:33 pmThe “Immigrants” have started a boycott of businesses in Prince William County.
Additionally, the big county in terms of poulation is Fairfax county and when asked to fall in with Prince William and Louden counties the executive said, with a holier than thou, attitude that they will not proceed the way the other two counties have. Fairfax is setting up a panel to look at the issue. Mind you, what the guy doesn’t the guy doesn’t say is that they wouldn’t even be looking at this if the thers had not moved.
davod (5bdbd3) — 8/26/2007 @ 6:15 amThe real crime here is that the illegals are counted as part of the census and money and congressional seats are apportioned based upon the illegals in the area as wel as legal residents.
davod (5bdbd3) — 8/26/2007 @ 6:18 amYes, the “I have rights” cry is backwards. Sort of like the Mexican Congress welcoming Evira A and castigating the US for returning her to her own country! Fellas, isn’gt that sort of admitting you have a crappy country?
And I question whether they are “in the shadows.” Most illegals in CA live completely open lives, working, hanging out at Home Depot, sending kids to school, driving, going back “home” for the holidays.
Patricia (4117a9) — 8/26/2007 @ 7:18 amOf course Mexico is a crappy country.
There’s no reason that prosperity should come to a screeching halt along the imaginary line that’s the US-Mexico border (an especially imaginary line the way the failed Bush administration doesn’t bother to enforce it).
The reason that the citizens of El Paso are mostly comfortable, and the citizens of Juarez a few yards away are mostly wretched, is Mexico itself. Mexican culture, politics and values are feudal, corrupt, racist and exploitative.
It’s hilarious to watch the US Media, every time Mexico “elects” another member of the white Castilian elite. They write page after page of puffery about this great statesman and how great he will be, and how much better he is than the outgoing crook with his Swiss bank accounts — the exact same article that the exact same “analyst” wrote about the outgoing crook, a few years ago when he was the incoming “statesman.”
It’s almost as if they had a “new Mexican figurehead president” template. It never occurs to them that the only reason any of these guys are in politics is to enrich himself, and enrich various children and nephews and what have you.
Increasingly, our own Congress is becoming as corrupt as Mexico’s crime-syndicate government. Look at Murtha, DeLay, Mollohan, Jefferson, Cunningham, Young, Reid and Stevens. Every one of ’em’s only focus is lining his own pockets and giving his kids a free lunch on the public teat. I’ve mentioned a few, but all 535 are like that — we’re adopting Mexican values.
Mexico is a much better place to live than the USA — if you’re in that top 2% elite whence come their “statesmen”. We’re headed that same way. If we keep importing Mexicans, we’re destined to have a Mexican social structure, with a tiny elite riding on the backs of multitudes condemned to peonage.
Remember El Paso and Juarez. The land is the same nasty desert, the people are the same mixed European and native stock, the climate is the same. Only the laws change — in the modern crime-syndicate dystopia that is Mexico, money and power are the only laws.
Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien (88bf29) — 8/26/2007 @ 7:44 amThe bulk of that [8-to-10-fold property tax] increase is due to increased costs attributable to immigrants, most of which are illegal.
Is this based on something we can access?
steve (eb85bd) — 8/26/2007 @ 9:34 amAs one of the residents of Loudoun, I do have to say that I am not pleased with the relatively nearby Saudi funded high school (dubbed ‘al Qaeda High’) nor by the lovely concept of Herndon, in next door Fairfax, opening a lovely job placement concept for illegal aliens. Somehow these two things just do not really please me.
And I am not at all confident in the ability of the federal government to actually *do* anything, seeing as how billions get spent on pork while things like roads and bridges and other vital infrastructure that needs an overhaul goes underfunded. If they can’t do that, then my confidence in something complicated like finding and deporting illegals is close to nil.
ajacksonian (87eccd) — 8/26/2007 @ 10:16 am“We came to better ourselves as human beings because we also want a better life for our children…”
Exactly what bank robbers might say.
logos (4ea297) — 8/26/2007 @ 11:25 amJust wait the ALU will get involved know what this leftists organization of terrorists supporting scum always do
krazy kagu (fb0f9e) — 8/26/2007 @ 4:55 pmKish–true, but they do pay less in taxes, don’t they?
Alan (f1706f) — 8/26/2007 @ 5:44 pmDRJ–I’m pretty familiar with emergency rooms, because I have to escort my mother there every so often–one time waiting four hours for her to be called in when she had an apparent stroke. (Offtopic but important–if you want fast ER service, get taken there by Fire-Rescue. Also, we use private hospitals, so I don’t know how long the wait would have been at a public hospital, which would probably be the more likely place for illegals.) The waits were caused by mostly by lack of beds and insurance procedures, and the lack of beds is due mostly to state regulation of hospitals. (Don’t know how they do it near you, but in Florida hospitals seeking to expand have to submit to state determinations of how many new beds the area they serve will need, and other messes.) There were immigrants waiting for help, but to all appearances they seemed to be legal (appearances being home owning middle class Hispanics who generally spoke tolerable, if not fluent, English).
And yes, I do live in an area (South Florida)with an enormous immigrant population from all over Latin America and the Caribbean, so undoubtedly there are a significant number of illegals here, beyond the large number of people who come by boat without getting the legal paperwork done first, and and may or may not get caught. (If they are Cuban, it it doesn’t matter if they’re caught, so long as they aren’t caught before getting onto dry land. Which every so often leads to interesting scenes of ICE or police trying to keep an asylum seeker on the other side of the high tide line until they can physically arrest him–and said asylum seeker trying to make sure he is above the tide mark.) (I might add that Mexicans seem to form the smallest portion of this population. Presumably Texas and California are easier for them.) If you want to avoid an area of the country where Spanish competes with English as the dominant language, don’t come here. And property taxes have increased, although not at the rate you describe. (We have a Save Our Homes tax cap scheme, now in the process of being scuttled, and a completely screwed up real estate market that saw our home’s market value go up almost a hundred and fifty percent in four years. The combination of the two means I can’t really tell how much the “real” rate of property tax increases is, much less how much is due to the costs of illegal immigrants. Without the tax cap, our property taxes would be three or four times the amount we actually pay, based solely on the rise in market value.)
But I think the basic fact remains–the amount of tax burden you pay for services rendered to illegals is much less than what you pay for services rendered to those who are either citizens or legal residents. And I suggest you contemplate how much in taxes better enforcement would require–not the economic effects like higher lettuce prices, but the actual amount of taxes you would pay as your share of funding the extra enforcement.
kishnevi (8731ef) — 8/26/2007 @ 7:25 pmKishnevi – You don’t follow the argument, which admittedly is part theoretical. In theory, if you have good border security and the kind of automated tracking systems bandied about for tracking and identifying legal visitors or temporary workers, the amounts spent on enforcement could decline over time. Think through the concept – you can get it.
If people “come out of the shadows” tax revenues may even increase. If criminal or undesirable illegal aliens are actually deported on a timely basis, law enforcement resources will be saved.
daleyrocks (906622) — 8/26/2007 @ 7:39 pmSteve,
I’m sorry I did not respond sooner but I just saw your earlier comment. It’s good that you left it because you made me check my facts and they were wrong. I apologize. My insurance has increased at the 8-10 fold rate. My ad valorem taxes have increased at about half that: 4-5 times as much after inflation. I can’t give you a link because I’m basing it on my property tax statements, which range from a low of $1,210.xx to last year’s tax of $7,403.xx. I figured inflation at 40% (approx. 2.5% per annum for 1992-2006) and, while I’m not a math major, I think that comes out to a 4-5 fold increase but I will gladly defer to any mathematicians in the house.
Kishnevi,
Your experience sounds similar to ours and I understand you don’t see the economic effects that I notice. Of course, it could be that we’re talking apples and oranges. The standard of living immigrants can have working in the West Texas oilfields or in manual labor employment is good, and apparently there is no an incentive to learn English, get an education, or save for emergencies. The problem isn’t that immigrants come here and accept menial jobs, it’s that their children and grandchildren stay in those jobs. It’s a permanent underclass – by choice – and that’s not a good thing.
By the way, I sympathize with your Mom’s apparent stroke and having to wait so long for treatment. That’s not good.
My community is too small to have private hospitals but we’re lucky to have a public hospital. Many small communities have lost their hospitals due to budget cuts. It’s not unusual for residents of some small West Texas towns to have to travel 100-200 miles to the nearest hospital.
The idea to go by ambulance is a good one but, unfortunately, it’s a well-known secret here. It’s commonplace for people to call for ambulance service to speed up their ER wait, especially low-income people who ultimately don’t pay the ambulance charges and are judgment-proof. One town even offers a frequent-user account where the city charges $5 a month for emergency ambulance service – I think it’s a maximum of 3 calls a month. Accordingly, arriving in an ambulance doesn’t bump you in the triage system anymore.
DRJ (bfe07e) — 8/26/2007 @ 7:55 pmMeanwhile, gangs are stepping up their rhetoric too.
I have to admire Pacheco’s guts.
Patricia (4117a9) — 8/26/2007 @ 9:18 pmEast Siders v Pacheco
“But I think the basic fact remains–the amount of tax burden you pay for services rendered to illegals is much less than what you pay for services rendered to those who are either citizens or legal residents.”
By definition Kish, the burden of your tax money to illegal immigrants is more than it should be simply for the fact that you shouldn’t be paying it at all. No matter the figures of legal taxes to legal burned vs legal taxes to illegal burden, 1/2 of this equation should be 0 and knock a nice chunk off your burden.
Lord Nazh© (899dce) — 8/27/2007 @ 2:40 pmDRJ–we are talking apples and oranges. The children of immigrants around here tend to move upward economically; and because of peculiarities of Latin American politics, the immigrants are often middle or even upper class who come here because of political reasons (think Sandinistas twenty years ago and Hugo Chavez now) or to pursue business opportunites. Example: a former co-worker of mine is a woman from Columbia who objected to being kidnapped by guerrilas fifteen years ago. In Columbia the family was extremely wealthy. For her, the move to the USA and the job she got on arrival here were a considerable step downward on the social ladder.
The only exceptions to this uppermobility rule are some of the AfroLatins, West Indians and Haitians who seem to often become mixed in with the general black community. There is an enormous difference in attitudes and economic iniative between US born blacks and Caribbean blacks. The former often dislike the latter, and the latter often despise the former as lazy, illiterate, etc. I suspect the origin of the difference may lie in the fact that the Caribbean blacks come from places where they are the overwhelming majority of the population, and are used to a government and economic establishment run by blacks (even if, as with Antigua and other places, it is poorly run). Therefore they can’t keep blaming the white man for keeping them down. Plus, being emigrants, they have already shown considerable personal initiative. There are, however, a noticeable amount of West Indians who were either criminals before they came here, or who easily joined the criminal element once they got to the States.
However, strict enforcement will never be able to be stopped, and will need to get stricter all the time. It’s a simple thing, really. As long as they can get better living conditions in the USA than they can at home, they will come here. As long as Mexico is signficantly worse than us, Mexicans will come here, illegally if they can’t come legally. Assuming that improving Mexico is beyond our power, the only two choices for getting rid of illegal immigration is either open immigration (I’ll presume some sort of screening mechanism to keep out criminals, jihadis in disguise, etc.) or turning the USA into a third world country. I’m for the first option. I suspect you are not for the second option, but there are some anti-immigrant people whom I would not be surprised to prefer the second option because they dislike immigrants that much.
Lord Nazh: the difference between you and I lies in this this: I think the majority of government programs is money that is not legitimately spent. Most of the tax burden is money we shouldn’t be paying in the first place, whether the recipients are in citizens, legal residents, or illegal aliens.
kishnevi (0e8541) — 8/27/2007 @ 6:59 pmKishnevi #33:
I think we do agree, Kishnevi, except I may focus more on the screening mechanism than you. I don’t want to keep out all immigrants but a million illegals a year is beyond ludicrous. My goal for border control is to credibly attempt to screen out criminals, terrorists, and immigrants with contagious or other dangerous diseases, but we can’t do any of that the way things work now.
DRJ (bfe07e) — 8/27/2007 @ 7:37 pmI was shocked, not to mention disgusted learning that these illegal immagrants will still be eligible for food stamps, education and healthcare. While I must give them credit for their effort, unfortunately Virginia’s new laws are not enough. Cutting off their free meal ticket would stop most of this foolishness.
JWM - Union, KY (834d7d) — 8/28/2007 @ 2:04 pmWith supposedly 5 million “legal” American citizens already out of work, do we want or need another 12 million illegals here? (I think NOT)! Stop the discrimination (race card) nonsense and read the hand writing on the wall, sorry I forgot you cannot read or even speak the language!