Patterico's Pontifications

8/14/2007

Will Newark, and other urban centers, find the courage to confront and condemn the “Stop Snitching” movement?

[Posted by WLS] 

60 Minutes ran a disheartening repeat of an episode it first aired last spring about the take-over of civic duty and responsibility by the hip-hop culture’s “Stop Snitching” campaign. 

In reading some of the backstory on Newark Mayor Booker in a NYT Series titled “The Hard Part”, I found this by Andrew Jacobs titled “Newark Battles Murder and its Accomplice, Silence.”

What can a community really expect from its police when it refuses to help itself?  Note from the fourth graph a depressingly similar crime perpetrated in Newark just four months ago — a group of young men surround an 18 year old college student before one shoots him in the back of the head.

Ho-hum.  Four months later, another crime. 

Why is Newark in an uproar only now?  Why not four months ago?

Here’s the text of the 60 Minutes piece if you missed it and you’re interested.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/19/60minutes/main2704565.shtml

54 Responses to “Will Newark, and other urban centers, find the courage to confront and condemn the “Stop Snitching” movement?”

  1. There’s an exception to the rule in Chicago. Rival gangs will snitch on the other (mostly they’ll get their gilfriends who don’t have records to do it) and not necessarily truthfully. It’s more than an exception actually, it’s considered a coup against the other gang and, I suppose, on the system.

    nk (119c34)

  2. Rove did a pretty decent rap.

    alphie (015011)

  3. Please do not feed the trolls. Thank you.

    steve miller (37a105)

  4. Haha, Steve,

    If there’s one thing this administration has taught America’s kids it’s…stop snitching.

    alphie (015011)

  5. Will the NY Post have the courage to stop referring to mob informants as “rats?” Did you see illustration in the cover of the Post on the day it was confirmed John Jr. had snitched on his friends? Full page drawing- whiskers and all.
    Where was the outrage!?

    Double standards all around.

    AF (57ec94)

  6. Double standard?? Where did I condone the NYPost?

    And, you conflate two different issues — the willingness of confederates to turn on each other (which I think is great), and the unwillingness of citizens to honor their civic responsibility to their neighbors by helping in making their neighborhood safer.

    WLS (077d0d)

  7. alphie: so what?

    WLS, I agree that the “snitch and I kill you” campaign terrorizes communities and is terribly demoralizing. The main problem seems to be that people don’t trust that if they cooperate with authorities, they’ll remain safe.

    In addition to asking the question why won’t those people stand up to the criminals and help themselves?, I think we (society, police, courts, etc.) need to take a look at what would cause informants to feel safer, and seek to address that as well.

    Tom (bacd64)

  8. “the unwillingness of citizens to honor their civic responsibility to their neighbors by helping in making their neighborhood safer.”
    You gotta to be kidding me. The reason the post did it is that they know their readership. Go to White Brooklyn. They don’t do it there either. “Rat” = “Stop Snitchin’ ” for white people.

    AF (57ec94)

  9. I think they actually call it “Executive Orders” in Broklyn now, AF.

    alphie (015011)

  10. Has anybody noticed how quickly AF and alphie seek to derail some topics?

    JD (815fda)

  11. Not especially.

    Is there a problem?

    steve (e649c2)

  12. the No Snitching isn’t necessarily a cover for people afraid of bad consequences if they help the police–criminals have been killing witnesses for about as long as there have been criminal investigations–but an attitude in certain quarters that it is “us”, the locals, against “them” the cops and all those people of other racial/ethnic background who “keep us down”.

    kishnevi (b53ae6)

  13. This “No Snitching” concept seems like a great way for the criminals to keep the good men and women of a neighborhood afraid to stand up for themselves, and frustrate the police. If the citizenry will not involve itself, how can the government be expected to fix it?

    JD (815fda)

  14. Oh, man. This goes to the heart of what I deal with every day.

    I don’t even know if I can discuss it, because it’s too much of a tightrope. I’ll just say generally, there is no greater issue law enforcement faces.

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  15. And, there is no easy answer. WLS at #6 and JD at #13 are right, But Tom at #7 is right as well.

    Unfortunately, there is little to address Tom (#7)’s concern other than relocation for witnesses, or radically restructuring our society.

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  16. Patterico – We see these vigils on TV for the death of some teenager tragically gunned down in a juvenile argument on the news all the time. Recently, there was a newspaper article that pointed out that the same people that were carrying around signs and candles for the deceased were the same people that were refusing to cooperate with the police investigation. At the same time, they were complaining via local mouthpieces, that the police were not doing everything they could to solve the crime due to the socio-economic status of the neighborhood, and the color of the victims skin. Nice little circular construct they have set up there.

    JD (815fda)

  17. JD, and now you see why I brought up the ethnic white equivalent:
    John Gotti – Folk Hero.
    Weird innit?

    AF (57ec94)

  18. Well, WLS and I don’t feel that way, AF, so take your complaint to the Post and leave us alone.

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  19. I saw the piece too and thought that it destroyed the canard that we can’t enforce immigration law because illegals won’t report criminals. All of the people who spoke against snitching were citizens. This shows that people in gang areas simply don’t snitch.

    Patricia (824fa1)

  20. Do not feed the trolls.

    Thank you.

    steve miller (37a105)

  21. Don’t you mean: Scott Thomas Beauchamp, worse than John Gotti, AF?

    Seems to be an irony free zone tonight.

    alphie (015011)

  22. I would recommend to everyone that they read the transcript from tonights On The Record with Greta Van — in her second segment she had some audio and video from two of Carranza’s arraignments where the issue of bail was dealt with. She also had on former NJ Superior Court Judge Andrew Napolitano.

    The recordings from the court hearings are stunning. The judge didn’t even dwell on the fact that the defendant spoke little or not english and said he did not have a social security number. Couldn’t have been more meaningless to him.

    AND, this hearing happened the DAY BEFORE the shootings. It was his formal arraignment on the July indictment from on the child sex case. He was originally arrested on that case in January, but wasn’t indicted by a NJ Grand Jury until July. He made his appearance on Aug. 3 (?), and his bail was continued. The shootings were on Aug. 4.

    Napolitano just ripped the judge for his conduct in the hearing. The prosecutor was hardly even heard from.

    wls (83737f)

  23. Well, one of the outgrowths of this “stop snitching” movement is that white citizens can now safely ignore Blacks when they complain about police not doing *enough* about a murder.

    BECAUSE WE KNOW THEY ARE LYING.

    If Blacks ACTUALLY cared about crime and it’s victims there would be no “stop snitching” movement, instead the inhabitants of poor neighborhoods would be crying out to crack down on gangs and not trouble themselves if the police have to shoot a gangbanger or three.

    Instead, we know how they actually feel by their priorities: 1. Keep the gangs in place (by backing the “stop snitching movement”), 2. handcuff the police (by screaming racism every time a gang banger gets shot), 3. scream racism for cameras to get some financial payoff.

    I understand what is REALLY going on the poor African-American community. The gangs are the ONLY source of economic activity other than guaranteed government welfare, and operate as ethnic militias. It’s not any different than the Serbian militias in Bosnia or the various militias in West Africa, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. There is no real social order like you’d find in West LA, or the Valley, or say Simi Valley. You’ve got the default mode for human society: tribal groups. This is what happens when social order and civic life breaks down. If it happened in Sarajevo it should shock no one that it happened in South Central or places in Atlanta.

    Rappers speak for their community. No one is counter-campaigning against this movement. Blacks in poor places WANT GANGS. And not being stupid either, they WANT the violence, killing, and other stuff that comes with Gangs. Because the benefits: tribal protection, no gentrification, and economic life outweigh the bad.

    I REFUSE to think that alone among all peoples African Americans in poor places are stupid. Or can’t figure out what their best interest is. OF COURSE they want Gangs. If I lived outside civil and social society I would want them too.

    The rest of America ought to take Rappers and the stop snitching movement at their word and simply ignore the crime in poor areas where African Americans live. Since obviously African-Americans find it a good deal for them, overall.

    [I’ll note there is no shortage of skilled African-American lawyers and the opportunities to sue Rappers and Music Labels and Gangs (and the many businesses they operate) for damages related to the killings of loved ones (lawyers could take contingency and move the plaintiffs, or go class-action. The payoff would rival that of early tobacco judgments. That this tactic has not been taken suggests African-Americans overall back gangs by huge margins.]

    Jim Rockford (e09923)

  24. i’d rather spend a week in jail in oregon than running around loose in newark.

    assistant devil's advocate (2acb60)

  25. I’ll talk to my prosecutor buddies up there and see if we can’t arrange that.

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  26. #23 — Jim Rockford.

    Well, okay. I think. You probaby would have loved Sun City back in the day.

    wls (83737f)

  27. Jim Rockford,

    That’s a comment that bespeaks a real lack of understanding of what it’s like in gang areas.

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  28. I know I started this thread, but I’ll admit I don’t have any obvious suggestions. While I don’t confront this problem as often as local prosecutor does because I don’t handle much in the way of street crime, it is painfully obvious to me that any long-term solution to inner city crime cannot be advanced in the absence of community support.

    The victims of these crimes are the residents of the neighborhoods. The perpetrators are the residents of these neighborhoods. Unwillingness on part of the victimized class to be part of the effort to fight back only leaves their tormentors free to roam among them.

    If they won’t fight for their own neighborhoods, they’re going to find little support from others to fight on their behalf.

    wls (83737f)

  29. Wow — I am employing some horrendous grammar. I need another beer, or I should have skipped the first one.

    wls (83737f)

  30. That’s not quite the same as saying they *want* gangs.

    Rockford should look some of my victims and witnesses in the eye and say that.

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  31. I’m not siding with Rockford. Frankly, his post baffles me.

    wls (83737f)

  32. Here’s another issue that seriously divides conservatives and liberals. Liberals expect government to solve these problems while conservatives (like me) believe residents have to take back their neighborhoods. Hopefully we all agree that government can and should help by instituting aggressive community policing but ultimately, if the residents don’t participate, government can’t fix it alone.

    DRJ (bfe07e)

  33. “The rest of America ought to take Rappers and the stop snitching movement at their word and simply ignore the crime in poor areas where African Americans live. Since obviously African-Americans find it a good deal for them, overall.”

    Of course I know a cop who spent 20 years on the NYPD, in a street crime unit in Harlem through the 60’s and 70’s, and that was his attitude. And he lived in a quiet neighborhood controlled by the Gambinos.

    I’d agree with WLS. My “snark” has only to do with the context of how the subject came up.

    AF (57ec94)

  34. The saddest thing I have seen is when this “I can’t be a snitch” (witness) was asserted in the investigation of the murder of a close family member. That’s shows this ridiculous view is getting out of hand. And to all those who say it is a function of distrust of the police. That’s BS, these witnesses are often the same ones who called the police in the first place.

    David (c893f6)

  35. Rockford’s post baffles me as well. How are you going to collect on a class action judgment against a street gang? Garnish their bank accounts and wages?

    biwah (2dcf66)

  36. …and ditto for the local rappers and labels that disseminate the anti-snitching message. Until the day they go legit, cash rules. And that’s a big part of the alienation that defines this problem in the first place.

    biwah (2dcf66)

  37. This gang violence and gang rule will go on as long as gang turf is made valuable by the Prohibition of various narcotic and stimulant drugs. And where a gang has more real power than the government — which is anywhere the gang can kill you with limited risk to it from the government — even most decent people will choose to play by the gang’s rules.

    DWPittelli (24f120)

  38. Well, then, we should just legalize drugs, and the gangs will lose their control ?!

    JD (815fda)

  39. I don’t even know if I can discuss it, because it’s too much of a tightrope. I’ll just say generally, there is no greater issue law enforcement faces.

    Given that there is no legal obligation on the part of law enforcement to provide protection to any given individual prior to a crime being committed, what do you expect?

    Check out Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership and their excellent book, “Dial 911 and DIE” by Richard Stevens.

    http://www.jpfo.org/dial911anddie.htm

    Since firearms ownership in California is very restricted, cooperating with law enforcement becomes even more problematical

    Horatio (f61519)

  40. we should just legalize drugs, and the gangs will lose their control ?!

    What, and deprive the Drug Warrior junkies of the asset forfeiture loot? Surely you jest.

    Horatio (f61519)

  41. So now we see how hard it is for every day Iraqi’s to work with the US and Iraqi forces against the terrorists there. And all they read about is the US democrats wanting to pull the troops. I wouldn’t help under those conditions either

    Steveie (3fd4ea)

  42. A pity we can’t apply counter-insurgency tactics to gang-ridden neighborhoods. That’s about what it would take, to change the residents mind set at this point.

    I don’t have any references, it’s been too long, but I vaguely remember there being court decisions which diminished the ability of law enforcement to protect witnesses.

    And legalize drugs and the gangs just become purveyer of legal drugs, they’ll still kill their competition to remain local monopolies. The only thing that changes is they can no longer be prosecuted for drugs.

    LarryD (feb78b)

  43. Personally, i believe gangs are terrorist organizations (domestic? maybe not, if ties to any drug operations – they are likely tied to international terrorist organizations). Further – Perhaps someone should point out what great “water-carriers” the rap/hip-hop community are for the Klu Klux Klan. Why they have operationalized the philosophy of the KKK in a manner so efficient that the Klan could only smile and perhaps give the rappers an award. Promoting the destruction of the African-American family unit – check! Promoting the murder of African-American males – check! Promoting the economic enslavement of African-Americans in general by encouraging expending precious limited capital on “necessary” items, like $20k auto wheels – check! Actively interfering with the limitation of the on-going damage from street crime by preventing the apprehension of criminals – who are of course preying upon the African-American community – CHECK! And best of all – questioning the rapper/hip-hop community for doing this = charges of RACISM!! Ha Ha Ha. I think the KKK is horrible – too bad the rappers and their ilk are secretly their bitches. For all their bravado, rappers/hip-hoppers who promote this “anti-snitch” campaign are the Klan’s modern Step’n’Fetchit – too bad.

    californio (cab6bd)

  44. i believe gangs are terrorist organizations

    So, with flick of his pen, Pres. Bush could declare these folks enemy combatants, the PATRIOT Act comes into play, and we can ship these thugs to Gitmo.

    Let’s start with members of MS-13

    Horatio (a549f7)

  45. A pity we can’t apply counter-insurgency tactics to gang-ridden neighborhoods.

    We could but we don’t have the political will to. The Al Sharptons of the world would crying racism within a second, defeating the desires of the community. Look at Maxine Waters defending a hospital that kills her “people”! She cares about her political machine, not the sick people of her district.

    Patricia (824fa1)

  46. Patricia,

    You do realize we’re dropping “precision” bombs into Baghdad neighborhoods daily, don’t you?

    I’m sure you mean kinder, gentler counter-insurgency tactics should be used here at home, right?

    alphie (015011)

  47. Braying and braying.

    Paul (f54101)

  48. It has been said that courage is chief among the virtues, because without it all of the others are meaningless. It takes courage to be a responsible citizen, a tough and fair cop, an honest and hardworking DA, a recording company executive that faces the truth, and so on.

    When asked, “What is wrong with the world?”, G.K. Chesterton wrote, “I am”.

    Recently three people were murdered in a neighborhood bar in Philly. “Nobody saw anything.” After about a week of no information the Mayor and Police Chief, I believe, held a press conference at the site and said, “This bar will not open until we have witnesses leading to the arrest of the perpetrators”. An arrest was made a few days later.

    Can we get staffing for a “neighborhood lock-down” program? A localized 24/7 overt police presence in conjunction with willing neighborhood individuals and organizations until the case is solved. People who are afraid to say anything might eventually get reassured. People who are annoyed might give info to “get back to normal”. Provide for witness protection as necessary, including “sting” operations with police decoys, etc., to take down those who intimidate witnesses.

    What are the other options? If a patient has a disease that will prove fatal without treatment, you give the treatment even if it’s painful and difficult. The alternative is to watch someone die.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  49. How much of gang culture, and the violence it breeds, an off-shoot of the mind-less gun-control we find in NY, NJ, CA, IL, etc? Can anyone cite a systematic gang problem in “Shall Issue” states? Isn’t this the logical consequence when the Gov’t. dis-arms the citizenry?

    Another Drew (33c3dc)

  50. “systematic”…
    Sorry, I meant “systemic”.

    Another Drew (33c3dc)

  51. I’m not a gun control guy, but I don’t buy the suggested correlation . . .

    Patterico (2a65a5)

  52. Really, AD,

    Every famly in Iraq gets spotted an assault rifle.

    Iraq is a gun nut’s paradise.

    But it isn’t one for regular people, is it?

    alphie (015011)

  53. I’m not a gun control guy, but I don’t buy the suggested correlation . . .

    Neither do I, given differences in demographics and population numbers. Bumbleheck, VA ≠ New York, NY.

    Tom (3b17af)

  54. Iraq is a gun nut’s paradise.

    But it isn’t one for regular people, is it?

    Yeah, it’s so bad that people are claiming to be shot at…with unfired bullets.

    Paul (f54101)


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