Patterico's Pontifications

Reid commenting on anyone competences, approval rating, or pretty much anything about anyone is like the pot calling the kettle black…

Scott Jacobs (90eabe) — 6/15/2007 @ 6:40 am

The Libby case is one more step toward mutally assured destruction by both parties toward their ability to govern. The impeachment of Clinton was a response to the Bork hearings and the attacks on Reagan appointees. Pretty soon, the only people willing to accept appointments will be political hacks with no career choices outside of government. Since Republicans have more options for private careers than Democrats, it may actually be an effective tactic for the latter. Few Republicans would be willing to risk what Libby is going through. Raines and Gorelick have made a good thing of Fannie Mae but the Democrats thrive in government and have few options in the private world. The reverse is true of Republicans.

Mike K (86bddb) — 6/15/2007 @ 6:53 am

“since republicans have more options for private careers than democrats…”

wtf? citation, please!

assistant devil's advocate (8499da) — 6/15/2007 @ 7:08 am

Brit Tzedek v’Shalom talks with Amjad Atallah

When Hamas won the January 2006 elections, their plan was based on an understanding that the Israeli government wasn’t actually interested in a two-state solution (despite rhetoric to the contrary), but was, in fact, most interested in security. They believed this desire could lead to the establishment of a hudna or long-term ceasefire that would give Israel what it needed, while Hamas would not have to sign off on anything that might compromise Palestinian rights. They didn’t realize that the Israeli government would in fact choose insecurity over security, insecurity over a deal with Hamas.

They didn’t realize, further, that the US Administration’s plan would involve falling back on old habits, leading an international economic boycott of Hamas and supporting and funding Fatah much in the same way it once funded the Nicaraguan Contras, in an effort to oppose the democratically elected government.

And Fatah, for it’s part, didn’t really have a plan. In a state of disarray, they were essentially left with nothing, and so the reasoning of many was “we must confront Hamas and defeat them, and we have to find some way (legal or not) to assume control.” That’s where the American-funded rebuilding of their security services came in, fitting nicely with US intentions.

Oddly enough, the Israelis, for the first time in my memory, didn’t have a plan either. There was a weak government in place, with no clear position – and thus, they found it very easy to follow the American lead. We don’t know if Israel would have gone in the direction of a ceasefire with Hamas, but we know for sure the US prevented them from doing it had they been willing.

Then along come the Saudis and other Arab states who recognized that Fatah was in no position to win a civil war with Hamas. They were very concerned that Gaza and the West Bank would become like Iraq and Afghanistan, and so they decided to facilitate the creation of a unity government, to give Fatah the time to rebuild their security services and their ability to confront Hamas at a later date. And we can see how well that’s worked out.

And so Hamas finds itself in a box, with no clear vision of how to get out, certainly as long as they don’t have the cooperation of Fatah. But Fatah isn’t interested, and in their current state of collapse, the only way for Fatah to compete with Hamas in a legitimate fashion is military confrontation. And you’ll notice that Fatah, in fact, started the fight with Hamas, and then Hamas did what everybody knew Hamas would do: attack Israel, to draw Israel into the conflict in order to show Palestinians that Israel and Fatah are fighting together, against Hamas. A bleak picture.

But the linchpin in this bleak picture is the US. Indeed, Fatah wouldn’t have attacked Hamas, it wouldn’t think that it could wage a civil war, if it didn’t feel it had White House support.

On Libby you should read the Judge’s words. He’s not a democrat.

AF (4a3fa6) — 6/15/2007 @ 8:14 am

I believe Mike K is referring to high paying careers. But he is probably overlooking the numerous well paid law related careers deeply intertwined with corporate entities. Not to mention all those private equity deals, compliance work, lobbying, you know the drill. And before you say yes but that’s just one industry, the law, just do a little straw poll of any room with politicians inside and see how many have law degrees. Any lawyers do know where the bigger money is. Blue, red, the dominant color is always green, and not the ecology one. Although the money is headed that way lately. One example…corn futures, anyone?

Marshal Dillon (2ceb4b) — 6/15/2007 @ 8:18 am

AF has the top portion of the Hamas takeover. Here’s the bottom portion from this morning’s news:

“…A resident of a Hamas-dominated neighborhood, identifying himself only as Yousef for fear of reprisal by his neighbors, said Gazans would always back the winner, regardless of ideology.

“Today everybody is with Hamas because Hamas won the battle. If Fatah had won the battle they’d be with Fatah. We are a hungry people, we are with whoever gives us a bag of flour and a food coupon,” said Yousef, 30. “Me, I’m with God and a bag of flour…

Marshal Dillon's deputy (2ceb4b) — 6/15/2007 @ 8:29 am

#4 Ah, I see. The Hamas-Fatah Civil War is the Bush’s the US’s fault. Hamas really wants to live in peace with Israel if only Israel and the U.S. would let them.

I have read Judge Walton’s words and understand he is not a Democrat. Read the Amicus brief. The signers are not all Republicans. The issue before Judge Walton was whether or not Libby should go to jail while his appeal is pending. I think he made the wrong decision. We will see what the Court of Appeals has to say on Libby’s request for bail.

Stu707 (5b299c) — 6/15/2007 @ 8:56 am

Could our society’s problems be traced to some people’s testosterone allergy?

Alan Kellogg (09ea03) — 6/15/2007 @ 9:06 am

in re: testosterone allergy

Robo-Tripping at Abu Ghraib
In November, he says, he overheard a conversation in the dining hall at Camp Victory. One soldier told his friends at a cafeteria table how detainees were being treated in Abu Ghraib. “They would hit the detainees as practice shots… The detainees would plead for mercy,” according to Provance’s sworn statement in Major General Antonio Taguba’s March 2004 report on military abuse, “Article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th Military Police Brigade.”
“The whole table was howling with laughing,” Provance tells me.

“They’d talk about their experience when the detainees were being humiliated and abused,” says Provance. “It was always a joke story. It was like, ‘Ha, ha. It was hilarious. You had to be there.’ It would be funny if it were in a movie — in a spoof like Naked Gun 2½.”

He puts his chin in his hand and looks across the room. “You see these Iraqi people. It’s hard to imagine they’re human,” he says. “They’re just the stock detainee. Like a movie prop.”
—

Provance’s friends converted a cell into a party room with fluorescent lighting, narrow cots, and a strip of yellow flypaper hanging from the ceiling. Plywood is nailed onto the wall, covering the barred window and the door. GNC Lean Shake containers are stored on a shelf.

Here, the soldiers danced at night and shouted out lyrics from OutKast’s “Hey Ya! (Shake It Like a Polaroid).” In one video, two men are swaying back and forth in front of the camera. Much has been reported on the criminal behavior of soldiers at Abu Ghraib. But until now few — if any — detailed, documented accounts of sexual relations among soldiers and between soldiers and female prisoners have appeared in the press. Sexual relations between guards and prisoners, even when consensual, are against military and prison regulations.

A former Abu Ghraib guard, Ivan L. (“Chip”) Frederick II, said he heard that “people in the Hard Site [an area of the prison], Tier 1A were pimping the females out for a dollar,”

AF (4a3fa6) — 6/15/2007 @ 9:50 am

Jesus fuck AF… 2003… We’ve admitted that Abu Ghraib happened. We’ve convicted the people who did that crap…

Jesus christ man, you must have a pathological need to beat a dead horse, don’t you?

And ffs… STOP THE CUT AND PAST YOU MORON!

I not you left out the DATE those things happened.

Scott Jacobs (90eabe) — 6/15/2007 @ 10:22 am

Click the link Scott.
You’ll learn something.

AF (4a3fa6) — 6/15/2007 @ 11:02 am

How about you fucking learn to post original fucking content, you empty shell of a poster?

I see you and yours getting all pissed off every time someone brings up how horribly abused those folks were at Abu Ghraib, but exactly where was the fury and rage when they released video tape of american captives being BEHEADED??

Scott Jacobs (90eabe) — 6/15/2007 @ 11:10 am

I would think there’d be comments on Nifong’s trial in NC. The guy ought to get every punishment they are able to hand out to him. And yes, I am judging him to be guilty of ethics violations and misconduct.

I also am dismayed that NO ONE is taking the 88 professors of the Duke Faculty that persecuted the Lacrosse players without cause. Those 88 should be facing a trial and loss of their tenure.

PCD (b50035) — 6/15/2007 @ 11:13 am

Scott,

you are wasting time with “people” like AF. They are only about taking down the guardrails of life and avoiding the responsibility for the human wreckage they leave in their wake.

PCD (b50035) — 6/15/2007 @ 11:15 am

““since republicans have more options for private careers than democrats…”

wtf? citation, please!

Comment by assistant devil’s advocate ”

I have neither the time nor the interest to do a search of the pre and post government careers of political appointees in Democrat and Republican administrations. If you had the slightest familiarity with the subject, you would note where they come from and where they go. The campaign against Republican appointees goes back at least to Reagan. Remember Ray Donovan (Where do I got to get my reputation back ?) and Cap Weinberger? Take the top 50 political appointees of each of the last four administrations and look where they come from. I will grant that there are a lot of lawyers and they can be called private sector in cases like Warren Christopher. The majority, however, show the trend. Democrats consider a career in government a successful career. With the exception of hacks like Trent Lott, Republicans tend not to.

Mike K (6d4fc3) — 6/15/2007 @ 11:52 am

Dont feed the trolls.

Gabriel (6d7447) — 6/15/2007 @ 1:09 pm

Hamas really wants to live in peace with Israel if only Israel and the U.S. would let them.

Stu, what planet do you live on? Hamas says it doesn’t want to live in peace with Israel, and no one forced them to say that. If you seriously believe that, go over to Alternet and such places, where you can share your illusions with the rest of the jihadis fellow travellers.

Mike K–I don’t have any data at hand, but I think your proposition is true only if you define such things and lobbying and the World Bank as private sector.

If you paraphrase the matter as “going into jobs where government connections matter” and “going into jobs where government connections do not matter” you would, however, probably be correct.

kishnevi (8b6e4e) — 6/15/2007 @ 1:37 pm

Hamas really wants to live in peace with Israel if only Israel and the U.S. would let them.

Stu, what planet do you live on? Hamas says it doesn’t want to live in peace with Israel, and no one forced them to say that. If you seriously believe that, go over to Alternet and such places, where you can share your illusions with the rest of the jihadis fellow travellers.

My comment about Hamas wanting to live peacefully with Israel was facetious. I have no illusions about Hamas. Hamas would murder every single Jew it could get its bloody hands on. Including me.

Stu707 (5b299c) — 6/15/2007 @ 1:53 pm

since republicans have more options for private careers than democrats

Not true, I suspect, in either direction. The problem at its roots is narcissism, and both parties certainly have their share of narcissists. True, I think the Dems have more – a consequence and catalyst, both, of their nanny-state mentality of rule by the elite – but neither party has much reason to boast about their level of infestation. Hello Howard Dean. Hello Ted Stevens.

Moreover, narcissists, being essentially amoral, “hunt” for status and power wherever they see it. If either party were to jettison a significant portion of their bad apples, and thereby reform and start to be seen as good, the narcissists would return tout de suite just to jump in front of the parade and claim leadership.

Or to put in another way, does George Soros have no options for a private career?

ras (adf382) — 6/15/2007 @ 2:16 pm

Is it normal for defendants to be sent to jail while awaiting appeal?

Eric (09e4ab) — 6/15/2007 @ 3:03 pm

Is it normal for defendants to be sent to jail while awaiting appeal?

If I recall correctly, there was a post on here a while back by WLS, a Federal prosecutor that discussed the criteria for granting bail pending appeal in Federal criminal cases. I think they are: the appellant is not a flight risk or danger to the community, the appeal raises important legal questions, there is a likelihood that the defendant will prevail on appeal, and the appeal is not intended as a device to keep the defendant out of jail.

The legal scholars who wrote the Amicus brief are politically diverse. They contend that the appeal does raise “close [legal] questions.”

Stu707 (5b299c) — 6/15/2007 @ 4:11 pm

”
Mike K–I don’t have any data at hand, but I think your proposition is true only if you define such things and lobbying and the World Bank as private sector.

If you paraphrase the matter as “going into jobs where government connections matter” and “going into jobs where government connections do not matter” you would, however, probably be correct.

Comment by kishnevi ”

Fair enough. The post government examples are weaker but Weinberger and Cheney both came from heavy industry. Paul O’Neill came from Alcoa although he had been a career bureaucrat before his private sector experience. I don’t think you will find many Democrats coming from anything but law and government and academia. All three of my examples had previous backgrounds in government but they were serious executives, unlike Raines and Gorelick who traded influence for millions and may yet get tripped up.

Mike K (86bddb) — 6/15/2007 @ 4:29 pm

Feed the trolls, and maybe they’ll suffocate under their own weight. 🙂

Alan Kellogg (90cdd2) — 6/15/2007 @ 6:23 pm

PCD you are so very right!

Nifong is the biggest national news story of the week, and it seems to be getting ignored. Very Sad IMHO.

Nifong all but screamed “I am a fucking liar every time my lips move”!

The really sad thing is that He is not the only Nifong in this nation! The same shit happens almost every day somewhere across the nation. I hope they hang him in a public square and televise it. Along with a warning to others that may choose such a path that their trial was also this week.

Scum like Nifong need to be drug in the streets, he needs to be fired, lose any monies he may have had coming to him, pension? Demonstrate that the public will not tolerate such behavior from those WE pay! EVER!!!!

TC (b48fdd) — 6/15/2007 @ 8:22 pm

“Raines and Gorelick have made a good thing of Fannie Mae” By good thing I can only think you mean made a killing. They got paid a fortune in salaries and bonuses (millions). Sallie Mae is under Federal Investigation for the changes made during their tenure.

davod (3392f5) — 6/16/2007 @ 5:08 am

“How about you fucking learn to post original fucking content, you empty shell of a poster?”

-Scott Jacobs

You are such a moron.

When AF posts an article, he is endorsing its content. If you can’t figure out his feelings from the articles he posts, you’re even stupider than I think you are.

If you can figure out his feelings from the articles he posts, than your grievance is little more than the petulant flailing of a mentally frustrated man-child who gets his ass kicked in open debate, and must resort to the same tired remarks for the sole sake of having something to say.

Leviticus (0d4c35) — 6/16/2007 @ 9:06 am

Am I going to have to do away with open threads?

Examples of things I don’t like seeing in comments:

“How about you fucking learn to post original fucking content, you empty shell of a poster?”

“You are such a moron.”

This sort of thing drags down the comment section, which I think is one of the better comment sections out there in terms of intelligence and a high level of discussion. Please avoid it.

Also, at least AF appears to be excerpting, which I appreciate.

Patterico (2a65a5) — 6/16/2007 @ 9:34 am

C’mon, Patterico. “One of the better comment sections out there”? Here are some examples of the high level of intelligence and discussion in this thread:

“Reid commenting on anyone competences [sic], approval rating, or pretty much anything about anyone is like the pot calling the kettle black…”

-Scott Jacobs

“you are wasting time with “people” like AF. They are only about taking down the guardrails of life and avoiding the responsibility for the human wreckage they leave in their wake.”

-PCD

“Scum like Nifong need to be drug in the streets, he needs to be fired, lose any monies he may have had coming to him, pension? Demonstrate that the public will not tolerate such behavior from those WE pay! EVER!!!!”

-TC

…And, of course, my little exchange with Scott Jacobs (which I feel free to say I won hands down).

This thread hasn’t exactly been the epitome of informed, adult conversation.

Give your other comment sections some credit.

Leviticus (6b378d) — 6/16/2007 @ 5:49 pm

Yes… How dare three people state opinion built upon fact…

Ried’s a hack who’s Senate has done jack and shit and is possessed of about a 19% favorable rating, Nifong is a legal hack who railroaded three young men and tried to ruin their lives, and AF’s a dolt who’s C/P-to-original words ratio is WAY tilted to sut and paste…

Yeah, we’re real jerks…

Scott Jacobs (a1de9d) — 6/16/2007 @ 6:32 pm

“AF’s a dolt who’s C/P-to-original words ratio is WAY tilted to cut and paste”

It’s not about you and me dear, it’s about knowledgeable opinions concerning FACTS AND EVENTS.
If I wasn’t there then I’ll link to someone who was. If I don’t read Arabic, then I’ll link to someone who does. If I’m not a lawyer but I follow legal argument I’ll defer to those I respect.
You think of all conversation is chitchat at the bar. You defend “talking out your ass” and are offended if anyone refers to actual knowledge rather than simple opinion.

AF (4a3fa6) — 6/17/2007 @ 8:29 am

6/15/2007

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