Patterico's Pontifications

This has had me rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.

Although I must say, this is different. And if we applied the death penalty to only really heinous crimes I’d be less opposed. Still, its hard to be opposed to the death penalty for a guy like SH (to be clear, I don’t oppose it in his case).

Dwilkers (4f4ebf) — 12/29/2006 @ 11:05 am

Saddam’s show trial made Nifong’s antics look like “Inherit the Wind.”

Sad to see so many legal “professionals” acting like a drunken lynch mob….

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 11:09 am

It was indeed a “show trial.” But for whose benefit? Strictly speakign there was no reason why we couldn’t have offed Saddam just as we did his sons. But Spectacle Comes First.

Would there be any reason to keep him alive? Any information he has that we don’t already know? I doubt it. I’ve always felt executing McVeigh was a mistake in that he potentially took all sorts of useful information with him to the grave.

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 11:27 am

It’s stupid. It will make things worse. He’s already a martyr in the eyes of many of those who hated him.

This whole endeavor, from the very start, has been about taking tawdry, cheap acts and dressing them up in a papier-mache grandeur — phony victory celebrations, ersatz democratization, reconstruction headed up by toadies, con artists and grifters. And this is no different. Hanging Saddam is easy. It’s a job, for once, that these folks can actually see through to completion. So this execution, ironically and pathetically, becomes a stand-in for the failures, incompetence and general betrayal of country on every other front that President Bush has brought us.

Try to dress this up as an Iraqi trial and it doesn’t come close to cutting it — the Iraqis only take possession of him for the final act, sort of like the Church always left execution itself to the ‘secular arm’. Try pretending it’s a war crimes trial but it’s just more of the pretend mumbojumbo that makes this out to be World War IX or whatever number it is they’re up to now.

The Iraq War has been many things, but for its prime promoters and cheerleaders and now-dwindling body of defenders, the war and all its ideological and literary trappings have always been an exercise in moral-historical dress-up for a crew of folks whose times aren’t grand enough to live up to their own self-regard and whose imaginations are great enough to make up the difference. This is just more play-acting.

These jokers are being dragged kicking and screaming to the realization that the whole thing’s a mess and that they’re going to be remembered for it — defined by it — for decades and centuries. But before we go, we can hang Saddam. Quite a bit of this was about the president’s issues with his dad and the hang-ups he had about finishing Saddam off — so before we go, we can hang the guy as some big cosmic ‘So There!’

That is Iraq right now. The Americans have done a fine job of working to break it apart. This last year has nearly everyone convinced that that was the plan right from the start. There were too many blunders for them to actually have been, simply, blunders. The ‘mistakes’ were too catastrophic. The people the Bush administration chose to support and promote were openly and publicly terrible- from the conman and embezzler Chalabi, to the terrorist Jaffari, to the militia man Maliki. The decisions, like disbanding the Iraqi army, abolishing the original constitution, and allowing militias to take over Iraqi security were too damaging to be anything but intentional.

The question now is, but why? I really have been asking myself that these last few days. What does America possibly gain by damaging Iraq to this extent? I’m certain only raving idiots still believe this war and occupation were about WMD or an actual fear of Saddam.

Al Qaeda? That’s laughable. Bush has effectively created more terrorists in Iraq these last 4 years than Osama could have created in 10 different terrorist camps in the distant hills of Afghanistan. Our children now play games of ‘sniper’ and ‘jihadi’, pretending that one hit an American soldier between the eyes and this one overturned a Humvee.

This last year especially has been a turning point. Nearly every Iraqi has lost so much. So much. There’s no way to describe the loss we’ve experienced with this war and occupation. There are no words to relay the feelings that come with the knowledge that daily almost 40 corpses are found in different states of decay and mutilation. There is no compensation for the dense, black cloud of fear that hangs over the head of every Iraqi. Fear of things so out of ones hands, it borders on the ridiculous- like whether your name is ‘too Sunni’ or ‘too Shia’. Fear of the larger things- like the Americans in the tank, the police patrolling your area in black bandanas and green banners, and the Iraqi soldiers wearing black masks at the checkpoint.

Again, I can’t help but ask myself why this was all done? What was the point of breaking Iraq so that it was beyond repair? Iran seems to be the only gainer. Their presence in Iraq is so well-established, publicly criticizing a cleric or ayatollah verges on suicide. Has the situation gone so beyond America that it is now irretrievable? Or was this a part of the plan all along? My head aches just posing the questions.

…Why make things worse by insisting on Saddam’s execution now? Who gains if they hang Saddam? Iran, naturally, but who else? There is a real fear that this execution will be the final blow that will shatter Iraq. Some Sunni and Shia tribes have threatened to arm their members against the Americans if Saddam is executed. Iraqis in general are watching closely to see what happens next, and quietly preparing for the worst.

This is because now, Saddam no longer represents himself or his regime. Through the constant insistence of American war propaganda, Saddam is now representative of all Sunni Arabs (never mind most of his government were Shia). The Americans, through their speeches and news articles and Iraqi Puppets, have made it very clear that they consider him to personify Sunni Arab resistance to the occupation. Basically, with this execution, what the Americans are saying is “Look- Sunni Arabs- this is your man, we all know this. We’re hanging him- he symbolizes you.” And make no mistake about it, this trial and verdict and execution are 100% American. Some of the actors were Iraqi enough, but the production, direction and montage was pure Hollywood (though low-budget, if you ask me).

…Here we come to the end of 2006 and I am sad. Not simply sad for the state of the country, but for the state of our humanity, as Iraqis. We’ve all lost some of the compassion and civility that I felt made us special four years ago. I take myself as an example. Nearly four years ago, I cringed every time I heard about the death of an American soldier. They were occupiers, but they were humans also and the knowledge that they were being killed in my country gave me sleepless nights. Never mind they crossed oceans to attack the country, I actually felt for them.

Had I not chronicled those feelings of agitation in this very blog, I wouldn’t believe them now. Today, they simply represent numbers. 3000 Americans dead over nearly four years? Really? That’s the number of dead Iraqis in less than a month. The Americans had families? Too bad. So do we. So do the corpses in the streets and the ones waiting for identification in the morgue.

Is the American soldier that died today in Anbar more important than a cousin I have who was shot last month on the night of his engagement to a woman he’s wanted to marry for the last six years? I don’t think so.

Just because Americans die in smaller numbers, it doesn’t make them more significant, does it?

AF (8f7ccc) — 12/29/2006 @ 11:33 am

#5 – It won’t make things worse (except for American liberals). It will show Iraqis that there is justice in Iraq.

That’s a tiny move in the right direction, for Iraq. (which is why it’s probably bad for American liberals)

ellersburgwhoresonellis (7085eb) — 12/29/2006 @ 11:43 am

Saddam may be a bad guy, eller, but he certainly didn’t receive justice.

All it will show the Iraqis is that it’s okay to kill anyone they disagree with…or reinforce that lesson that we already taught to them by invading their country by mistake.

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 11:48 am

#7 – So much wrongness in

ellersburgwhoresonellis (7085eb) — 12/29/2006 @ 12:27 pm

…under 50 words! I don’t have time to unpack it all. Neville Chamberlain indeed.

You got one bit right: Saddam didn’t receive justice, because, Saddam had tortured and/or murdered hundreds of thousands. Justice would be for Saddam to be hung hundreds of thousands of times, after torture. And that’s just not possible. (Maybe in Hell, they can do it to him.)

As for the Iraqis: They get to see that their government – and yes, it is THEIR government now – (1) follows due process, and (2) has effective writ. On that basis, it will show the Iraqis there is justice in Iraq.

ellersburgwhoresonellis (7085eb) — 12/29/2006 @ 12:27 pm

neville, there’s no such thing as objective “justice”, on this planet there is only “law”. saddam got more “justice” than mussolini did from the italians, or ceaucescu did from the romanians. you gonna be a brutal dictator, you better stay on top and keep your fickle patron happy at all times. i don’t care what they do with him; i’ll probably watch the video just for the novelty, never seen a hanging before.
david ehrenstein asks if there’s any information he has that we don’t already know. i submit that one of the reasons the administration wants him dead is the information he has about uncle sam’s past involvement that isn’t widely known.

assistant devil's advocate (c9bfdd) — 12/29/2006 @ 12:30 pm

What a bunch of loons nest here! LOL Although, some parts or aspects of ADA’s comment made sense.

ellersburgwhoresonellis (7085eb) — 12/29/2006 @ 12:36 pm

Saddam’s been in American custody since he was captured, ellers.

I can’t imagine the second-rate Iraqi actors we hired to mumble through the script written by some neocon screenwriter-wannbes fooled even the dimmest Iraqi citizens.

I agree with ada, we’re killing him to keep what he knows a secret…

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 12:40 pm

Dwilkers wrote:

This has had me rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.

Although I must say, this is different. And if we applied the death penalty to only really heinous crimes I’d be less opposed. Still, its hard to be opposed to the death penalty for a guy like SH (to be clear, I don’t oppose it in his case).

As a capital punishment opponent, I have always thought that other such opponents made a big mistake when they tried to personalize opposition to specific cases. I didn’t think that we should have executed Tookie Williams, because I don’t think we ought to execute anyone, but I saw the “oh, he’s such a good guy, he wrote a children’s

Dana (3e4784) — 12/29/2006 @ 1:08 pm

He was buoght and paid for for so many years; installed with the help of the CIA, and now people crow over his execution as if history means nothing.

It’s a pathetic joke.

AF (8f7ccc) — 12/29/2006 @ 1:41 pm

Try pretending it’s a war crimes trial but it’s just more of the pretend mumbojumbo that makes this out to be World War IX or whatever number it is they’re up to now.

Said by someone who obviously believes that brown people are better off under brutal dictators (even if a few young girls need to be raped…those omlets and broken eggs ya know) because at least the brown-people country is stable. And stable is most valuable least one upset the pronouncing white, compassionate liberal from enjoying his half-caf latte and waxing derisively over those stupid US soldiers who were brainwashed with passe patriotism.

Darleen (543cb7) — 12/29/2006 @ 3:01 pm

Perhaps that should read if you have no idea how to make an omlet, don’t go around breaking eggs, Darleen.

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 3:18 pm

Darleen obviously feels brown people need to be brutally raped by white ones.

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 3:26 pm

So I suppose Darleen that you’re appalled that the CIA gave him the list his used to round up and kill a few thousand people after Qasim was overthrown in 63?
And you’re appalled at the history of US support for this criminal?

AF (8f7ccc) — 12/29/2006 @ 3:33 pm

AF

Saddam was a Soviet client…and then a French one…

far far more than an ever an American one

And exactly where does something that happened under a Democrat President over 40 years ago give Saddam a “get home free” card for the mass graves, bounties on Jews, rape rooms of the last fifteen years?

Darleen (543cb7) — 12/29/2006 @ 3:41 pm

I’m coming to believe the Nev/David sockpuppet is really one of those autogenerating pieces of script spitting out non-sequitor leftist bumpersticker sayings.

Darleen (543cb7) — 12/29/2006 @ 3:43 pm

Not everyone is gifted with such a finely tuned moral compass as you, Darleen.

The necons may believe that by lynching Saddam, they are absolved of responsibility for the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis they have killed…but I can’t perform such moral gymnastics.

Killing Saddam is just another pointless death chalked up to our grubby little crusade to me…forgive me if I don’t join you in your one handed watching of the video highlights.

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 4:08 pm

Neville

If excuting Saddam is (in your world) is the same as enemy irregulars killed in battle by American troops

then you must hold rape and love making the same because they both involve sexual intercourse.

Your kind of moral foolishness excuses evil and punishes good.

Again, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt by calling you merely a fool (rather than a quisling)

I’m an optimist that way

Darleen (543cb7) — 12/29/2006 @ 4:24 pm

[Comment deleted. — P]

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 4:29 pm

Saddam is by any reasonable definition, a monster. The deaths he is personally responsible for are countless. The brutality and depredation he visited upon on those he did not kill is indescribable. Those who argue for leniency, like it or not, advocate on behalf of a monster.

Its O.K. with me if you choose that path. But let’s not allow ourselves, or you, to pretend that it is something it is not. You literally assume the position of Devil’s Advocate. And not in the cutesy sense. (Pardon ADA)

Neville, David and now AF are provacatuers. Trolls in any other language. Your collective contributions demean an otherwise worthwhile conversation. Catch a hike.

Dump ’em Patty.

Ms. Judged (f2e636) — 12/29/2006 @ 4:34 pm

“Patty”?

George W. Bush is by any reasonable definition, a monster. The deaths he is personally responsible for are countless. The brutality and depredation he visited upon on those he did not kill is indescribable. Those who argue for leniency, like it or not, advocate on behalf of a monster.

Its O.K. with me if you choose that path. But let’s not allow ourselves, or you, to pretend that it is something it is not. You literally assume the position of Devil’s Advocate. And not in the cutesy sense.

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 4:39 pm

Hehe Darleen,

I don’t think you are capable of admitting innocent Iraqis have died because America invaded their country.

Are you?

Morality to you seems to equal selective ignorance.

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 4:42 pm

“I’m beginning to believe Darleen is Michelle Malangalang’s Evil Twin.”

Go fuck yourself, racist.

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:03 pm

Darleen it looks like the execution’s going to be coming up very soon, so set you Tivo and rush right out to 7/11 to get fresh batteries for your dildo.

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:07 pm

Obviously you have her mistaken for your boyfriend, dipshit.

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:10 pm

Don’t tell me Darleen looks like THIS!

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:12 pm

“Saddam was a Soviet client…and then a French one…
far far more than an ever an American one”
Darleen, you’re pathological. You ignore the history or you make it up. We’ve been through this before I think.

AF (8f7ccc) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:13 pm

Your hyperlinks mean nothing, racist.

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:16 pm

Why are you calling me a racist?

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:26 pm

Because you’re a racist, racist.

[All right. Tone it down, all of you. — P]

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:27 pm

Aha, a Tautologist is in the house.

David Ehrenstein (7a0a1d) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:30 pm

The racist pretends not to understand why people pick up on his racism. Enjoy that dunce cap.

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:32 pm

My recollection is that there was at least one other defendant sentenced to death along with Saddam Hussein and another defendant who received a life sentence but the court remanded for imposition of the death penalty. I assume some of these sentences were also appealed and might be final. Have there been reports indicating whether only Saddam will be executed or if there will be other sentences carried out with his?

DRJ (51a774) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:42 pm

somebody’s casting racial and sexual aspersions in here! that’s a good sign that they don’t have anything else.
i’m gonna watch the hanging one-handed too. something like this calls for a cold pilsner urquell, or a glass of chinaco reposado with a quartered lime, depending on what time it is. the guy tortured his own soccer team when they didn’t win games.
hi there ms. judged, i bean just fine, but no hawg chinook yet this year. can’t think of any snark for you today, but as scarlett o’hara observed, tomorrow is another day.

assistant devil's advocate (302e50) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:43 pm

I should have looked around the internet before asking my last question, because I see there will be three executions in Iraq tonight:

An adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Saddam would be executed before 6 a.m. Saturday, or 10 p.m. Friday EST. Also to be hanged at that time were Saddam’s half-brother Barzan Ibrahim and Awad Hamed al-Bandar, the former chief justice of the Revolutionary Court, the adviser said.

I’m struck by the image, and perhaps even the symbolism, of three executions. I wonder if the number 3 has a special significance to Muslims or Iraqis?

DRJ (51a774) — 12/29/2006 @ 5:52 pm

Doubtless David and Neville weeped for Goering and Mussolini. Peace in our time and all that.

What a load of garbage. We should have hanged Saddam a long time ago. Swinging Osama and Zawahari and a few others would do wonders as well and make the world a far better place. Addition by subtraction.

We should have hanged the Blind Sheik.

Well, there’s no fool like a liberal. “The world’s not perfect. I hate myself/my country! I love murderers!”

Jim Rockford (e09923) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:13 pm

The only success in nation-building was run by liberals, jim.

Your kind has only brought death to the world.

If killing innocents in an attempt to stabilize Iraq is a hangin’ offense is the president the neocons want to set…let’s hope their worn out “moral equivalence” get out of jail free card works outside of our rather porous borders…

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:22 pm

“The only success in nation-building was run by liberals, jim.”

Sesame Street doesn’t count, sweetie.

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:29 pm

DRJ wrote:

I’m struck by the image, and perhaps even the symbolism, of three executions. I wonder if the number 3 has a special significance to Muslims or Iraqis?

Maybe they had three guys sentenced to death, and it was simply practical to do all three at once. Why does there need to be some special significance to the number?

Dana (556f76) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:32 pm

Dana,

I don’t think there is. It’s probably just the way things worked out. But I still find it striking.

DRJ (51a774) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:37 pm

The crier of Peace In Our Time wrote:

If killing innocents in an attempt to stabilize Iraq is a hangin’ offense is the president the neocons want to set…let’s hope their worn out “moral equivalence” get out of jail free card works outside of our rather porous borders…

One would have thought, Mr Chamberlain, that you were sophisticated enough to see the difference between attempting to liberate people from a brutal dictatorship, and using mass murder to impose and maintain a totalitarian system.

But, perhaps not. As I recall, the first Neville Chamberlain was perfectly willing to trade putting people under Nazi slavery to avoid anything as messy as resisting the dictator. Is it possible that, as his namesake, you have selected your internet nom de guerre more accurately than anyone else?

Dana (556f76) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:37 pm

The only success in nation-building was run by liberals, jim.

That was back when liberals still loved the US and its ideals unlike today when liberals are all a bunch of potty-mouthed fags who hate the US.

Dubya (c16726) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:44 pm

Perhaps it is you guys who have changed, Dubya…

Neville Chamberlain (80a4fa) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:48 pm

What if Capt. Jamil Hussein is the source for the AP’s report of Saddam Hussein’s execution? He seems to be the AP’s go-to guy for Sunni deaths in Iraq, but then we wouldn’t know whether to believe the report or not.

I’m kidding, of course, but it would be surreal … not unlike this execution.

DRJ (51a774) — 12/29/2006 @ 6:56 pm

potty-mouthed fags

THANK YOU.

actus (10527e) — 12/29/2006 @ 7:12 pm

Jeebus, but I could improve the average intelligence of the posts here tonight with random typing.

Kevin Murphy (0b2493) — 12/29/2006 @ 7:16 pm

potty-mouthed fags

THANK YOU.

Oh, you’re not a potty-mouth.

kl (15574e) — 12/29/2006 @ 7:16 pm

Drudge has a banner that Saddam was executed shortly before 6 AM Baghdad time, which I think was 10 PM EST.

DRJ (51a774) — 12/29/2006 @ 7:19 pm

Please don’t engage Neville. It distracts him from his disc wiping responsibilities here at Video Village/DVD Destination. If this keeps up, I will have to let him go, I won’t be able to let him keep living in the storeroom, and I’ll have to deal with his mother (my scary sister Judy).

Uncle Herb (b86663) — 12/29/2006 @ 7:22 pm

TPM

Reuters, December 29th, 2006 18:35 GMT …

The White House declined to comment on the timing.
“That is a matter for the Iraqi people, we are observers to that process. They are a sovereign government and they will make their own decisions regarding carrying out justice,” spokesman Scott Stanzel said in Crawford, Texas.

AP, December 29th, 2006 10:02 PM Eastern

An adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Saddam would be executed before 6 a.m. Saturday, or 10 p.m. Friday EST. Saddam and others were convicted of murder in the killings of 148 Shiite Muslims from an Iraqi town where assassins tried to kill Saddam in 1982.
…

The time was agreed upon during a meeting Friday between U.S. and Iraqi officials, said the adviser, who declined to be quoted by name because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
—

By the way, they hung him just now.

AF (8f7ccc) — 12/29/2006 @ 8:00 pm

12/29/2006

Saddam May Be Hanged Within Hours

55 Responses to “Saddam May Be Hanged Within Hours”

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