Patterico's Pontifications

11/2/2006

A Very Simple Quiz — So Obvious, In Fact, That The Question Is Almost Rhetorical

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:58 pm



You’re listening to your favorite talk radio station, and an ad comes on with a fictional husband and wife having a friendly argument about something. Eventually, one of the two reveals the other to be a complete idiot.

Without knowing anything more, answer this question:

Which is the wise spouse, and which is the idiot?

Is there any doubt in your mind about this? At all?

P.S. This mindset is so ingrained in our society that I predict 90% of the commenters sharing a gender with the wise spouse in the commercial will defend the fact that the answer is obvious, by arguing that the ad simply reflects real life.

And a good 30-50% of the other gender will dutifully agree.

60 Responses to “A Very Simple Quiz — So Obvious, In Fact, That The Question Is Almost Rhetorical”

  1. Well, duh. You’re an idiot if you embarrass your spouse for acting idiotic on air “in front of the world”.

    You’ll never get sex for a month!

    Christoph (9824e6)

  2. It’s a fictional ad we’re talking about.

    Something like this (I’m making this up):

    SPOUSE #1: I’m going to go buy some widgets from Store x!

    SPOUSE #2: Why don’t you go to Store y, where widgets are so much cheaper?

    SPOUSE #1: But I like Store x!

    SPOUSE #2: That’s because you’re an idiot.

    SPOUSE #1: I guess you have a point there.

    See what I mean? Is there any doubt as to whether stupid SPOUSE #1 is the husband or the wife?

    Patterico (de0616)

  3. You mean that women are very cost conscious and men just want to get shopping over with, buy it where they’re comfortable, and get it over?

    Christoph (9824e6)

  4. I mean that advertisers are happy to depict one gender as stupid, but would never dream of depicting the other gender that way.

    Patterico (de0616)

  5. You mean that because of political correctness they’re okay with showing men as buffoons, but have to tiptoe around less than intelligent women?

    Christoph (9824e6)

  6. I don’t want to tip my hand.

    Let’s see what others say.

    Patterico (de0616)

  7. Which is weird if you happen to feel that way because the first time I read that I almost pictured a husband calling his wife dumb in public, but when I thought about it, I kind of thought that makes the husband the bigger idiot.

    Wives are treasures provided by God and while I poke fun at my girlfriend relentlessly (often for her pleasure to add challenge to our relationship and increase my value or ‘status’ in her eyes, which continues to enhance her enjoyment) I respect her mind, values, and feelings deeply and would never accuse her of being an idiot on radio.

    Not if I ever wanted to get laid!

    Christoph (9824e6)

  8. Anyway, Patterico, I was totally pulling your chain and playing “assistant devil’s advocate” so I’ll bow out of the conversation now and let you have your fun.

    Christoph (9824e6)

  9. Men are more commonly foils and loveable bumpkins in ad scripts.

    Bimbo blondes are déclassé.

    Rigid archetyping has left me limp.

    steve (a6a64b)

  10. I think this is one of those things where the non-traditional has become commonplace. One of life’s little ironies, like Maher’s bastion of political correctness that went by the name of “Politically Incorrect.”

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  11. I was watching old episodes of The Cosby Show recently and I was struck by how often the plot dictated that Dr. Huxtable was the one acting like a fool and in the wrong while Mrs. Huxtable was the wise and level-headed one. So I guess this sort of stereotyping is nothing new. They know that they can get away with this sort of thing and that us guys will just sit back and accpet it.

    JVW (2393a5)

  12. It’s obvious that the man is the idiot. It’s like that cell phone commercial where the dad gets the whole family the cell phones they want but when goes up for a little love, a high five, something, he gets the squadoosh. But hey, everyone knows that men are just sex-crazed animals who can’t remember to put the toilet seat down.

    I had an interesting conversation recently about an upcoming book, a Dr. Laura-type marriage counseling book for women, with the title Strangling Your Husband Is Not An Option, and whether such a title would ring so cute and/or humorous if the domestic violence were in the other direction. Number one response to that question: Oh, lighten up, it’s just a book title for heaven’s sake.

    I’m guessing you’ll get more than a few comments of “oh, it’s just a commercial, lighten up.”

    Linus (c376df)

  13. Normally it is the husband that turns out to be the idiot but I think I have heard ads where, perhaps for novelty value, it is the wife.

    James B. Shearer (fc887e)

  14. Well, #13, the fact that it was “perhaps for novelty value” sort of makes the point doesn’t it?

    I have been married for 30 years, and I only wish my wife was half as competent as the all the wives that the media shoves down our throats. I married her thinking I would have an equal partner, and my life would have been a lot happier if she was!

    Don’t like that? Tough shit: it is true in my family, and it is probably true in many more than you PC twits can imagine.

    I am the grownup in this family, and it is damn lonely being the only one. The only redeeming thing is that after 30 years, the kids are starting to figure it out, and understand why Dad wasn’t always able to smile like Mom was.

    Sherlock (a58e20)

  15. The husband is, of course, the idiot. Anything else would be “sexist”.
    :-)

    Greg D (4b81fa)

  16. Well, it is obvious that some people don’t remember the 50’s and 60’s … on TV or in print ads.

    heh.

    Darleen (03346c)

  17. Yeah, I’m not saying my wife is an idiot, just that I am not one. These kinds of commercials bug me, but I understand the human need to make fun of someone and Society™ has decreed that it is very uncool to make fun of most every other demographic group.

    Linus (c376df)

  18. Men are set up as the ‘idiots’ in ads. So what move on. In real life (which people seem to focus on less and less nowadays)it is the men who are required to come up with solutions when a crisis occurs. In the work place women feel free to have emotional meltdowns while men suggest ‘take a moment, we’ll carry on while you deal with this’
    So when it comes time to get someones attention you poke fun at the man. It bothers you? Fine, call ’em up and complain. My cell phone contract was up? I remembered the commercial that ticked me off and changed providers.

    paul from fl (967602)

  19. Much as I like to bash political correcntess, there is a better explanation for why men are always the butt of the joke: because being the butt of a joke takes a much better commedian than being the straight guy, and men are, by and large, lots funnier than women.

    There was a discussion of this over at Master of None sometime back and someone suggested that it’s because for men, being funny is a way to attract women, but for women it’s not a very good way to attract men. Not that men aren’t attracted to a woman with a good sense of humor, it’s just that the effect of a good sense of humor is completely swamped by the other female attributes that can attract men. Like being available, for example.

    Doc Rampage (4a07eb)

  20. Wow, the sexism runs rampant, I see.

    Well, as a woman, my first reaction was that the woman was the idiot. I lived through the Archie Bunker and Three’s Company Suzanne Somers era, so maybe I was just programmed that way.

    In the work place women feel free to have emotional meltdowns while men suggest ‘take a moment, we’ll carry on while you deal with this’

    Is it an emotional melt down when a guy calls his coworker “a silly c—“? Or says, if she’s irritated that she must be “on the rag” or “not getting any”? How about that favorite of working gals everywhere, that she must have “slept her way to the top”? Never hear that one about guys but I HAVE heard all these things said about women (fortunately, not me, at least within hearing).

    So quit your bitchin’. It’s not like there aren’t ads/shows/tv eras that work the other way.

    sharon (dfeb10)

  21. I lived through the Archie Bunker and Three’s Company Suzanne Somers era

    So because of Archie Bunker, as pennance, all husbands from this point forward on tv shows and commercials have to be portrayed as slackjawed morons. Makes about as much sense as “affirmative action”.

    ebert roeper (3875b9)

  22. Fred Flintstone. It was funny, but I’m tired of it. Actually, I’m way beyond that. Families need help. Not a wedge forcing them apart. This is one of the reasons why TV is a distant memory for me.

    What bugs me even more are the ads (and TV shows and movies) where the children are the wise ones and the parents are the idiots. You know, the kids just give each other that look – there they go again, what can you do?

    It’s funny until you realize that the producers are serious.

    Coherent families with parents who cooperate and children who respect their parents are largely absent from the media.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  23. Patterico, you’re only just realizing this now? I’ve been complaining about this for years. Even my own spouse agrees that my gender is typically portrayed as the idiot.

    aunursa (d50e8b)

  24. The question has long been resolved at my house. I chose to marry my wife and she chose to marry me. So who is the smart one?

    nk (06f5d0)

  25. “Much as I like to bash political correcntess, there is a better explanation for why men are always the butt of the joke: because being the butt of a joke takes a much better commedian than being the straight guy, and men are, by and large, lots funnier than women.”

    Tell that to Margaret Dumont.

    nittypig (4c1c43)

  26. I’m happy to say that I’m so out of this loop that I had to read the comments before I understood what you were talking about!

    jau (8fb3ce)

  27. We’ve come a long way from “Burns and Allen.”

    roy in nipomo (17385a)

  28. There’s an easy solution to this problem: Watch less TV.

    Leviticus (43095b)

  29. I mean, advertisers wouldn’t be using these things if they weren’t working. So boycott every single type of product that uses a commercial like this and see what happens.

    Leviticus (43095b)

  30. So because of Archie Bunker, as pennance, all husbands from this point forward on tv shows and commercials have to be portrayed as slackjawed morons. Makes about as much sense as “affirmative action”.

    This is just a stupid statement. I used two examples of television shows which routinely showed women as stupid to make the point that television portrays everybody as stupid at one time or another. Sometimes it’s men. Sometimes it’s women.

    I’m with Amphipolis on the state of television. I’m much more concerned about the portrayals of adults and families, especially when single-parent families shown are almost always a man raising his kids (something that is not typical). Where are the moms?

    sharon (dfeb10)

  31. I’m with Amphipolis on the state of television. I’m much more concerned about the portrayals of adults and families, especially when single-parent families shown are almost always a man raising his kids (something that is not typical). Where are the moms?

    Hmmmm maybe TV is an inverse display of the reality of society?
    Does that mean Men aren’t really morons?
    oh goody.

    paul from fl (001f65)

  32. Then there’s “24” where Jack’s daughter spent Season 2 as a contestant for “dumbest blond on the planet.” To make up for it, the producers brought her back the next season as an intelligence analyst.

    Although considering the number of bad things that happen at CTU, maybe that’s not such a stretch…

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  33. TV isn’t the inverse of reality at all. But it is often a stereotype of reality, and the stereotype is not helpful. It is not even funny any more.

    Actually, there are now some imaginative shows that break the old sit-com dad’s a total idiot mold. My brother has been trying to get me into some of these, and I am impressed.

    Amphipolis (fdbc48)

  34. +1 on this. Most of the male characters on TV are emasculated idiots. No wonder the “Sopranos” is popular. At least Tony has some balls.

    fred (4d468e)

  35. @sharon:
    are you ovulating today?

    this has been going on since tv was invented. it was one of my dad’s pet peeves back in the 1960’s. i don’t have a tv in my house. over 99% of what’s on is just rank garbage. my fellow americans have been watching this garbage for so long it’s rotted their minds; look around you at the results.

    assistant devil's advocate (5f4b05)

  36. I believe that the men are dumb/women are smart slant is because most household purchasing is done by the women–they’re the target audience.

    The only exception that comes to mind is big-ticket luxuries, like electronics. There, the take is that sure, Hubby just blew $10,000 on a huge screen TV to watch the game, but gee, the lovable idiot is having so much fun, how can you scold him for it? And besides, it also makes that gardening video look great!

    refugee (3b19bb)

  37. Sharon, if “sexism” is just the view that men and women have significant statistical differences then not only am I sexist, so is the universe.

    Look, there are plenty of women who are great at comedy and being the butt of a joke. Susanne Summers and Jean Stapleton (Edith Bunker) are good examples. So are Carol Burnett, Lucille Ball, Shelly Long (Diane Chambers), the two women on “Just Shoot Me”, and a lot of others. But you go to any high school and round up all the comedic characters and you are going to end up with about 20 guys for each girl. I suspect there is a similar ratios in the pool of people available for acting in comercials.

    Comedy is a skill that you have to practice to be good at. A lot of guys practice being goofy. Very few women do.

    Doc Rampage (4a07eb)

  38. Hasn’t anyone ever read the Berenstain Bears? Puhleeeze!

    Attila (Pillage Idiot) (68fd1f)

  39. @refugee

    You’ve got it right. The dumb hubby/smart wifey angle always plays out in commercials targeted toward women’s purchasing power. This includes everything from household items to “feminine products”. But as soon as the sponsor shifts targets from women to men, let’s say beer commercials during sporting events, things change. Suddenly the women are largely depicted as sexpot bimbos, often throwing themselves at dumpy men who’d never have a chance at them in real life.

    In sum:

    Advertisers’ message to women: “(patronizing tone) You’re smarter than your man. Suuuuuure you are.”

    Advertisers’ message to men: “(ditto) Dude, you could nail the hottest babe in the room, any time, anywhere. Suuuuuuure you could.”

    DubiousD (5b9cf3)

  40. Does the conventional wisdom regarding TV programming/advertising apply as well in talk radio? Patterico’s example was a talk radio ad and the target audiences for TV and talk radio seem different to me. I don’t think it works as well to combine a smart wife with a dumb husband in the talk radio market.

    DRJ (1be297)

  41. How about the TV commercials for the movie package on cable/dish, where two babes are talking and behind them, the husband of one of them is doing something really stupid. The two babes continue to insult the guy.

    Men. The new jew? We report, you decide.

    Paul A'Barge (9ee668)

  42. Jack’s daughter spent Season 2 as a contestant for “dumbest blond on the planet.” To make up for it, the producers brought her back the next season as an intelligence analyst.

    to make up for it? Dude, a dumb blonde portraying a US Govt intelligence analyst is typecasting

    Paul A'Barge (9ee668)

  43. @sharon:
    are you ovulating today?

    Nope. Are you whacking off today?

    Sharon, if “sexism” is just the view that men and women have significant statistical differences then not only am I sexist, so is the universe.

    Who said this? I said that TV is filled with stereotypes, many of which have, in the past, been unflattering to women. Now the pendulum has swung the other way and men are the “dumb ones.” But you don’t have to watch much TV to see that there are far fewer single moms portrayed on TV than exist IRL. Maybe it’s just that single dads who can’t give kids baths, feed them, change diapers, or act like adults is what passes for comedy on network TV. I guess the executives must think that’s more believable, right?

    sharon (dfeb10)

  44. I once heard a strange commercial for a lending company. Basically, Spouce #1 was all prepared to go toe to toe with EvilBank, and Spouce #2 was trying to save Spouce #1 from the effort by refering them to Advertiser.

    I was trying to figure out what struck me as WEIRD about this commercial. Then, I realized that Spouce #1 was a woman (well, it dawned on me that this was the weird part – obviously, I knew that from the start), and the husband looked good compared to the wife, who was about to walk out of the house in football gear to take on the EvilBank lending division.

    That’s the ONLY TIME I’ve ever seen the husband portrayed as smarter than the wife. While I don’t think it should be the other way around, I do get a bit tired of having my gender ALWAYS play the buffoon.

    B. Minich (659df0)

  45. When you argue with a cmplete idiot, it’s difficult for observers to tell who’s who.

    chsw (5fe855)

  46. Sharon, what I think your ‘pendulum’ assessment misses is that feminism supposedly taught us that one sex being denigrated to make the other one feel superior is wrong. Archie Bunker did berate Edith, but he was not portrayed as better for having done so. The degradation of males to make females feel superior as portrayed in all too many situations on TV is not the mirror image of pre-feminist TV, but a meaner devolution designed to pander to the female ego. The mantra is: Females must be shown as superior and preferrably at the cost of one or more males. I don’t think this is an issue with the vast majority of women (some though believe the lie), but is an issue with the media and academy. If the female ego becomes so fragile that it requires constant reinforcement by manufactured depictions of it being superior to the male, we are all in a lot of trouble.

    Dr. Deano (7f152b)

  47. I was going to bring up Berenstain Bears as well. Even as a child, I got sick of the way males were portrayed in EVERY SINGLE book as opposed to how the females were portrayed.

    Andy (6feefb)

  48. The husband is the moron. They’d never make the woman out to be the moron, but men are fair game.

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  49. How about the TV commercials for the movie package on cable/dish, where two babes are talking and behind them, the husband of one of them is doing something really stupid. The two babes continue to insult the guy.

    There’s another, for a window company. The two women are admiring the built in blinds while the guy is knocking over the grill and setting himself on fire just outside. The ladies don’t even notice this, which apparently adds to the humor. Or something.

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  50. Consumer tests show that we actually pay attention to advertising as soon as it reflects a need or hits home on a certain topic. When we need a new washer or TV, it’s the appliance ads and warehouse ads that suddenly jump out.

    As for talk radio and radio in general (and those television sitcoms mentioned above), the dumb guy/dumb girl setups seem to get fairly equal play. But I’ve read an article at least which pointed out this dumb husband trend. Laura Schlessinger just wrote a book on the mistreatment of men and boys, and ironically, she’s one of the few female voices to break through with longtime success and numerous station affiliates. Look at KABC’s website. Or KFI. All male hosts. Except for a specialty cooking show or other single female voice, it’s generally this way across the country. KFI has been programmed by both genders, but overall I’d say it’s clear who the dominant voices are on the airwaves – – and they belong to men.

    Vermont Neighbor (456914)

  51. Sharon, what I think your ‘pendulum’ assessment misses is that feminism supposedly taught us that one sex being denigrated to make the other one feel superior is wrong. Archie Bunker did berate Edith, but he was not portrayed as better for having done so. The degradation of males to make females feel superior as portrayed in all too many situations on TV is not the mirror image of pre-feminist TV, but a meaner devolution designed to pander to the female ego. The mantra is: Females must be shown as superior and preferrably at the cost of one or more males. I don’t think this is an issue with the vast majority of women (some though believe the lie), but is an issue with the media and academy. If the female ego becomes so fragile that it requires constant reinforcement by manufactured depictions of it being superior to the male, we are all in a lot of trouble.

    My assessment wasn’t about feminism, it was about trends. There are a whole variety of feminisms these days, some quite benign and others quite ruthless in their critiques and treatments of men. What you are mainly complaining about is that TV, in general, is much meaner for laughs than it used to be. Sure, Ward would pat June on the shoulder when she said something stupid but, bless her heart, she was just a dumb woman. These days, it’s just not a joke unless the foil is a total moron. It’s just quite fashionable for the moron to be male, that’s all. I’m not condoning that formula, but that’s the one most fashionable these days.

    As has been pointed out, this is not, in any way, a reflection on real life where men dominate most high-paying positions and government. Please don’t bother arguing about this; it’s a fact that men do tend to have the highest positions in any given company and they do dominate our government. I’m not making any argument about why it is that way or whether it is fair. That’s just the way it is.

    sharon (dfeb10)

  52. Feminism is about equality. Equality that should include pay, career advancement, employment responsibilities and the personal freedom to create a satisfying home life, without sacrifice. We’re a long way from any of these becoming equally balanced between the genders, and I think most of us would give up a couple mortgage commercials which don’t satiate our personal, emotional or financial needs at all. In fact, it’s really another form of condescension.

    I kind of don’t care if Homer Simpson is made to look like a fool. In fact, outside of the cable cartoons, you would be hard pressed to find many roles on tv where the dad is a dork to the point of being a quasi-Ted Baxter. On cable cartoons, the characters and plots are all based on absurdity. The occasional mortgage commercial on radio with the helpless husband? IMO, that gets noticed primarily because it happens to be someone’s personal sticking point.

    Harrison Ford, Superhero. David Caruso, Superhero. Sports? Big bucks. Run by and for men. Tennis and golf have a few high-earners but otherwise, the world still serves to benefit the first sex. Bravo to the woman who breaks through to CEO, and to the men who reward and encourage superstar talent.

    Vermont Neighbor (456914)

  53. Contra Vermont Neighbor, there are plenty of sitcoms where the man (or men) are the stupid sex. “Everybody Loves Raymond” spawned a host of them — “King of Queens,” “Yes, Dear,” “‘Til Death,” etc. Elaine was the least stupid character on “Seinfeld.” Joey was the most stupid character on “Friends” and “Joey.” On balance, the men of “Cheers” were far more dumb than the women. And VN can run down “The Simpsons,” but in its prime, it was probably one of the best shows on TV; as it stands now, it’s one of the longest-running. The examples VN cites are not comedies.

    Contra Sharon, the model goes back as far as “The Honeymooners” — Ralph Kramden was an abusive buffoon. Edith Bunker was a much nicer person than Archie — whose ignorant prejudices were the target of Norman Lear’s humor. And the pendulum — to the extent it existed — probably does not exist anymore; a TV show that featured stupid women and smart men is not going to get greenlit these days, any more than Hollywood is likely to put “Amos & Andy” back into production.

    OTOH, when I flip past these shows, the thought occurs to me that having these schlub comics married to supposedly smarter, better-looking women is not really a compliment to women.

    Both VN and Sharon raise the issue of sexual equality in society generally. I don’t think there was anything in Patterico’s post about that. Nor do I think that pumping out the stereotype of idiotic men being cared for by superior women helps the cause of feminism in the long run. I don’t want to overstate it, but it seems likely to be unhealthy at the margin.

    Karl (bfb32e)

  54. Feminism is about equality.

    No, humanism is about equality. Feminism is about female supremacy. It’s about misandry. It passed by equality with nary a glance at it years ago.

    Pablo (08e1e8)

  55. Both VN and Sharon raise the issue of sexual equality in society generally. I don’t think there was anything in Patterico’s post about that. Nor do I think that pumping out the stereotype of idiotic men being cared for by superior women helps the cause of feminism in the long run. I don’t want to overstate it, but it seems likely to be unhealthy at the margin.

    My point, which you must have missed, in bringing up equality IRL is that these TV shows, movies, commercials are not, in fact, real life.

    As I stated, it is only ONE brand of feminism which believes in degrading men to exalt women. Most women these days reject that brand, and it is because of the harshness of that Gloria Steinem/Betty Friedan version that so many women refuse to call themselves feminists these days. There are lots of feminists who do not believe that bashing men helps women’s causes, but I don’t think these ads are a huge problem.

    sharon (dfeb10)

  56. Feminism is about equality. Equality that should include pay, career advancement, employment responsibilities and the personal freedom to create a satisfying home life, without sacrifice.

    In what universe will anyone have the ability to do any of the above, “without sacrifice”?

    This isn’t feminism, it’s infantilism.

    Teri (afca91)

  57. In what universe will anyone have the ability to do any of the above, “without sacrifice”?

    Teri, you’ll find the answer varies between genders.

    Feminism is about equality.

    It doesn’t get more simple than that. It’s not about burning bras or hating people. To refer to the original post, the ads that show men as dumb seem to bother a number of people. It’s surprising in light of the ads that easily topple this stereotype, those that include women as eye candy: selling gym memberships, luring us to Vegas, selling moisturizer, cars and hamburgers. NONE of these stereotypes bother me, so I was surprised that the smallest slice of caricature (the dumb hubby) got such a response. Right now, we can move our curser from left to right and make a woman’s wrinkles disappear on the computer screen. Advertising… it’s dishing up these common messages and stereotypes every day.

    Vermont Neighbor (456914)

  58. Pablo, I appreciate you for freshening up a stale word and providing a better description. But I very much disagree that things are equal at work or in employment settings. Although, I will argue in defense that people hire who they’re comfortable with, and that’s frequently cited as to why men pull men up the ladder.

    Karl, you won’t find me putting down The Simpsons. Anyone would be proud to write a show like that. I don’t care that Homer is made out to be lovably dumb; you misstated my comment.

    And no, it’s not just comedies that have stereotypes. The original radio ad in this post brought that up, and the dumb husband is a trend that many people seem to dislike; advertisers take note. But you would probably agree that every story and comedy setup needs conflict. That’s how extreme personalities and assorted characters play off each other. It’s really futile to point out every Chrissy Snow versus Ralph Kramden, Edith versus Archie, David Caruso versus his lesser underlings. Tv-wise, Norman Lear and his team are my all-time favorite writers – take the best of what he gave us and it soars over stuff like Friends. (The strength of that show was that the actors were so good at timing, and conveying friendship and spontaneity.)

    The examples VN cites are not comedies.

    The original post was about a radio commercial. #50 is my response to that.

    Vermont Neighbor (456914)

  59. I don’t know if I am typical in my reaction, but whenever I hear/see a commercial that makes the husband/guy a boob, I make a conscious note to never buy that product again. I wonder if the advertisers are aware that their ads have that effect on some consumers.

    It’s getting tougher and tougher to go shopping, though.

    Bugz (22f877)

  60. This complaint — men portrayed as bumblers in media –goes back at least 40 years.

    I remember reading just such an article in “True” magazine (a general-interest non-pornographic men’s magazine) about 1965 or ’66. It was titled something line “The Plot against the American Male” and cited “F Troop”, “The Dick Van Dyke Show” and “The Flintstones”, among others, as negative examples.

    Mike W (76679f)


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