10/20/2006

16 Responses to “More on Waterboarding”

1. Patterico:

   They didn’t use waterboarding when I was in the Navy (mid-1980s); and that’s too bad, because I would love to undergo it: I’m intensely curious what all the fuss is about.

   What I would do (to our soldiers undergoing waterboarding in training) is give them some ersatz secret — maybe a phrase like “colorless green ideas sleep furiously” — and tell them not to divulge it.

   I’d give a prize (a case of beer) for the person who lasts the longest, and another case for the interrogator who has the lowest average time that his subjects last before spilling the bones.

   If you had the opportunity, wouldn’t you try it just once?

   Dafydd

   Dafydd (6e94cd) — 10/20/2006 @ 11:37 pm

   
   

2. Our people (pilots, SF, etc.) undergo it during Survival, Evasion, Resistance, & Escape (SERE) school. The training concludes with a field exercise: the students try to evade capture, but thay all end up in a POW camp. The abuse they undergo exceeds what the unlawful combatants at GITMO experience.

   BUTCH (cfee12) — 10/21/2006 @ 5:11 am

   
   

3. Ex-Marine, 82-86. They didn’t do this then, or at least not as any routine recruit or infantry training.

   That is not to say that they don’t do it as BUTCH describes above as part of some more specialized training. I find it plausible that they do, or would, in a carefully controlled way in that sort of training.

   I say that because I know they do things that aren’t terribly far off from that, or did, when I went through training, and I think if they thought it was useful training they would be willing to do it.

   Remember, everybody in the military is a volunteer and has been since the 70’s. So anyone going through this sort of training would be doing so because they were voluntarily seeking the status or job that this training would help qualify them for.

   And FWIW, that is exactly what waterboarding is and how it works based on what I’ve read. Is it “torture”? IMO yes it is.

   Dwilkers (a1687a) — 10/21/2006 @ 6:37 am

   
   

4. Dwilkers:

   And FWIW, that is exactly what waterboarding is and how it works based on what I’ve read. Is it “torture”? IMO yes it is.

   You’re certainly entitled to your own definition of that word, as are we all. But waterboarding is certainly not “torture” under the consensus of American opinion. Polls on this subject relentlessly indicate that Americans believe torture requires inflicting actual injury on the victim… not just the fear that we were just about to do so.

   I’ve complained about this over on my own blog many times: a word which is well defined in the language is redefined in order to include a much higher percentage of human activity. But the redefiner nevertheless relies upon the residual emotional impact of the original definition to falsely impute a horrific response to what is actually rather mild.

   Dafydd

   Dafydd (6e94cd) — 10/21/2006 @ 6:50 am

   
   

5. Sorry Dafyd, I tried to reply but my comment got spam blocked. It’ll have to wait for Patterico to decide if he wants to allow it.

   Cheers.

   Dwilkers (a1687a) — 10/21/2006 @ 7:30 am

   
   

6. Not every field soldier or marine is put through SERE or equivalent training, it is targeted to special forces, SEALS, and aircrew, those most likely to be captured.

   When a SERE “class” is being organized, each trainee’s medical record is reviewed, and a medical screening (pre-screening form is required with the application package) is conducted with a Navy doctor. Among the numerous reasons for doing so is to be aware of past broken bones or serious injuries, because the SERE instructors are not allowed to target previously broken bones for harsh treatment. It isn’t unknown for trainees to suffer serious sprains or broken bones during the resistance portion of the training, because they are manhandled beyond what we are allowed to do to war prisoners or detainees.

   The purpose is manifold, beyond the technical skills taught for exposed field operations. Anyone who has experienced this behavior firsthand will work very hard to avoid it being repeated. They will also be better prepared to undergo such treatment with less fear at how bad it might get (been there done that, if you will). The moral equivalency crowd cries at the inhumanity, that we would terrorize our own. But war IS hell, and the fact is such training is valid and effective. As Dwilkers stated, waterboarding was not a technique employed in the mid 80s. Some tecnhiques that were, carried the potential for significant injury. Unlike Dwilkers, I would never call waterboarding torture. Coercive? Absolutely.

   At SERE training, when the time expires a siren is sounded, followed by the raising of Old Glory and the playing of the National Anthem over a sound system. Without exception, the trainees weep uncontrollably. Some of them couldn’t be broken by the treatment inflicted on them, but the relief that it is done, the reminder that they are free people, is overwhelming.

   They serve, suffer and sacrifice that others may live free. Most of America cannot know what they experienced, and will never understand what they felt.

   “Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.”

   Freelancer (f99e36) — 10/21/2006 @ 10:38 am

   
   

7. I went through army basic training about 10 years ago. Part of training was going into a small concrete building with a gas mask on. Inside, they’d drop tablets onto a hot surface, emitting smoke which filled the room with CS gas. A drill sargeant would come around and rip everyone’s mask off. We spent about a minute in the room before they opened the doors and let us out. I didn’t like it and neither did anyone else but nobody cried that it was torture and I’d guess it was a lot worse than waterboarding. There was a video that was linked to here recently where someone submitted himself to the practice on film. When it was over, he said it was terrible but he LAUGHED about it. I damn sure wasn’t laughing when I came out of the gas chamber.

   jeff (edb9b1) — 10/21/2006 @ 1:06 pm

   
   

8. I did the same thing in Canadian army basic training as does every man or woman who goes through it. My dad did the same thing in the 60s.

   This is kind of funny, but we had a Private Muhammed on our course too. Friendly enough guy, a bit timmid. He made a big deal of his religion (his privilege) and stated he wouldn’t shave his beard.

   We had a Liberal governmnent in power, whether that makes any difference, and the army told him he didn’t have to even though the rest of us — instructors and students — thought this was a bit dumb.

   However, suddenly, the day before gas hut Private Muhammed prayed to Allah and later communicated to the rest of our course that he believed it would be appropriate to shave his beard now.

   The gas had freaked him out.

   As far as CS gas goes, even hippies get tear gassed (praise Allah).

   I didn’t find the gas hut particularly difficult, although others did a bit more and were somewhat panicked. A couple ran out. But then I’ve always had a good ability to deal with acute pain. I’m sure that waterboarding is more difficult since it adds the additional fear that you can’t breath, whereas this just hurts to breath.

   Anyway, I guarantee you that since they were forced to stop hitting recruits with canes in the 70s, the Canadian Forces make abundant use of painful “stress positions” for recruits at least in infantry and man do they hurt.

   But who would actually complain about that? You suck it up and move forward and deal with the next bit of pain they inflict on you.

   A difference between this job and being interrogated is that you volunteered for it (not that draftees would be treated any differently if we have a draft again!) and another is that even in training several recruits on my course were injured a couple so bad they had to drop the course and leave the military. Being injured hurts too. Detainees, however, are carefully managed to avoid lasting injury.

   Christoph (9824e6) — 10/21/2006 @ 1:29 pm

   
   

9. Every police cadet that has recently completed P.O.S.T. (Police Academy) has probably been sprayed with O.C. (Pepper Spray), been hit with a taser shield, and shot with a taser gun. All three could be considered as “not humane” as they all cause pain and discomfort. The purpose is so the cop will know the results of his/her actions and use the weapons appropriately. The same actions used on a terrorist prisoner without cause would probably be considered as torture by the dissenters but they really cause no harm beyond the “present” discomfort.

   George (b9b09b) — 10/21/2006 @ 1:53 pm

   
   

10. In 1959, at about this time of year, I was a 2nd Lieutenant of Infantry attending the Army’s Infantry School at Ft. Benning, GA. Our training included being treated as prisoners of war (training based on treatment dished out to GIs by the North Koreans during the Korean War. Geneva Convention need not apply.) We we verbally abused, knocked around and down, and had the snouts of snarling German shepard dogs introduced to the ends of our noses. This was all done by US soldiers who were taking the part of “agressor forces.” This, of course, took some of the edge off of our fears, this knowledge that our guys, though trained to treat us very roughly, were still our guys and would not deliberately and seriously hurt us. However, I am constantly amazed by the left’s rediculous anxieties for our “enemy combatants”, read prisoners of war. When you take up arms, or bombs, without wearing a uniform, and attack people, you deserve a lot worse than having the hell scared out of you.

    Fred Beloit (a6b662) — 10/22/2006 @ 8:26 am

    
    

11. Dafydd,

    You can, as the linked article says, waterboard yourself. It is fucking scary even though a)you’re doing it to yourself, b)you can stop it at any time and c)you fully know nothing bad it going to happen to yourself. It’s like an instinctual response I guess.

    Spade (22a2ea) — 10/22/2006 @ 4:39 pm

    
    

12. When I was in the SEAL Teams I was waterboarded and I waterboarded other people in training. I think that it is safe to say that SEALs as a group are probably more comfortable in the water than any other group that I can think of. During “Pool Competency” I inadvertantly inhaled water while at the bottom of the 9ft section of the pool twice and was able to recover from that and remain submerged and complete the evolution. When I was waterboarded, I panicked and tried to escape from the experience as if I were dying even though I was in far less jeopardy than during pool comp.

    Part of the reason was that during the pool comp evolution, I could collect myself and I had the option (although I didn’t take it) to head for the surface. During the waterboarding, I was being held down by several large SEALs and I understood that I was at their complete mercy. This aspect as well as the sensation of drowning itself was integral to the 100% success rate that waterboarding yields. Additionally, like other commenters have mentioned, targets understand that this procedure does not portend actual physical damage and can be stopped immediately by cooperating.

    During a ship assault training evolution, we captured the bridge of a Navy ship and its Captain. We asked him brusquely where the “terrorist” aboard was hiding and he refused to tell us. We immediately knocked him to the deck of his own bridge, pulled his t-shirt over his face, and poured one canteen of water over his nose and mouth. Before that canteen was drained, he was begging us for the chance to tell where the “terrorist” was.

    Not using waterboarding during interrogations would be foolish and moreover dangerous when its risk to benefit ratio is so completely in our favor.

    Froggy (2713f7) — 10/22/2006 @ 10:51 pm

    
    

13. How many times, in the movies on on TV, has someone been interrogated by forceing their face into a barrel or trough of water for a few seconds?

    Waterbording is an elaboration of this.

    larry (336e87) — 10/23/2006 @ 7:56 am

    
    

14. We do it to our own soldiers, but then again we have also charged people with war crimes for doing it.

    Yukio Asano got 15 years of hard labor for waterboarding in 1947.

    Davebo (d5c3f7) — 10/23/2006 @ 10:37 am

    
    

15. The abuse they undergo exceeds what the unlawful combatants at GITMO experience.
    Comment by BUTCH — 10/21/2006 @ 5:11 am

    Butch it is not abuse it is TRAINING! As someone who went through SERE it is very uncomfortable especially if you panic easily however, abuse or torture it is not!

    Joe (a1113b) — 10/23/2006 @ 11:37 am

    
    

16. Davebo,

    Here’s a summary of what Yukio Asano did:

    Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

    Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward.

    Sounds like Abu Ghraib stuff – for which the American ringleader was sentenced to 10 years and a dishonorable discharge. Maybe Americans are consistent after all.

    BTW Davebo, you should get your information from people other than Ted Kennedy. He’s not the best source of reliable information.

    DRJ (1be297) — 10/23/2006 @ 11:56 am