Patterico's Pontifications

8/1/2006

Clint Taylor Discusses Mel Gibson

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:58 am



Clint Taylor writes on Mel Gibson:

Alcohol is not a truth serum, of course; it just makes you stupid (or more stupid) when taken to excess. There is no empirical evidence that drunks are any more truthful than sober people. It’s an old wives’ tale that alcohol opens a window on one’s soul.

I agree that people will sometimes do or say things under the influence of alcohol that they would never do or say sober, and sometimes those things are not explicable as the simple loss of inhibition.

On the other hand, I can pretty much guarantee you that I wouldn’t go around screaming about Jews at a .12 blood alcohol content.

Clint concludes:

Let’s hope he will prove to us that his shame and contrition, not his booze-addled bile, is a product of who he really is.

Read it all.

52 Responses to “Clint Taylor Discusses Mel Gibson”

  1. On the other hand, I can pretty much guarantee you that I wouldn’t go around screaming about Jews at a .12 blood alcohol content.

    I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t, either. Then again, I’m equally sure I wasn’t raised by a raving anti-Semite, so even if I did get drunk enough to spew random nonsense it probably wouldn’t be about Jews.

    Xrlq (f52b4f)

  2. Of course, this will constitue “proof” that Gibson’s movie “The Passion” was crafted as an anti-Semetic propaganda piece.

    trentk269 (3d3bfe)

  3. but where did the jew-hating come from?
    is it latent in every bottle of tequila? i drink tequila frequently, but have never experienced it. is it in other liquors, whisky, vodka…?
    see, if it wasn’t in the tequila, it must have been in the man. it didn’t come in from the cool night air when he rolled his window down to talk to the cop.
    the real issue here isn’t anti-semitism, or even the anti-semitism of a hollywood figure. the real issue is disparate treatment of criminal suspects. the sheriff briefly withheld his booking photo and redacted the official report. it took bloggers, not the msm, to break this open. now other writers are trying to rehabilitate him.
    i didn’t see “the passion”, but the recent developments certainly constitute evidence in favor of the proposition that it was “crafted as an anti-semetic [sic] propaganda piece.”

    assistant devil's advocate (ba72d6)

  4. I’ve seen people rave on about Jews while drunk, or at least I think it was Jews; their speech was a little slurred. However he was well past .12 (a level that’s regularly reached by your average pubgoer over here)…

    Leigh (be6f9c)

  5. Having heard Gibson’s second apology this morning I have to credit him that it did not contain the usual weasle factor I’ve come to expect in public apologies. It was a direct apology and appeared to be truly contrite.

    Lee Baca on the other hand . . .

    C Student (018b79)

  6. Well, if Jesse Jackson can (while sober) refer to New York as “Hymietown” and Hillary Clinton can allegedly (while sober) rant about “f***ing Jews” and somehow both of them remain major players in Democrat politics, I think Mel deserves the chance to make amends, provided he proves to be sincere in his apology.

    JVW (d667c9)

  7. “the real issue is disparate treatment of criminal suspects.”

    I agree. Mel Gibson getting arrested for drunk driving shouldn’t be news any more than if you or I did it. But, in fact, it is news because he IS Mel Gibson.

    I’m not quite sure where all this “he should be treated like other criminal suspects” stuff comes from. Are you simply angry that a celebrity isn’t being as fully humiliated as humanly possible for some bad judgement? Because you and I both know that that is what would have happened had Gibson’s mug shot been released like “other criminal suspects.” In fact, he would not have been treated like “other criminal suspects” because the publicity associated with this would have been worse than it is for “other criminal suspects.” In other words, the consequences are worse for celebrities. I have no sympathy for Gibson and I don’t buy the “he was drunk” excuse for his anti-Semitic remarks, but, for the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone is getting up in arms that the police didn’t write up everything and release his mug shot because THEY knew that he wasn’t just another “criminal suspect.”

    sharon (03e82c)

  8. I also thought the .12 was kind of low to cause someone to go ape. But maybe it had peaked earlier and he was on the downslope. After a whole night of being drunk, I guess it’s possible.

    Patricia (5b7822)

  9. As to the relatively low bal, I have heard from friends who are alcoholics that if you go off the wagon, only one or two drinks and you are batshit crazy drunk. I don’t know the physiological mechanism behind this. I don’t know if it happens to all alcoholics, but I have heard it said several times by alcoholics.

    sam (61acac)

  10. Speaking only on the issue of alcohol, I have gotten falling down drunk, unable to stand on my own two feet, and still being able to think, control myself, and thank and apologize to my companions who helped me. Maybe Sam, Comment #9, is right — alcohol-rotted brains may be different. Maybe it affects different people differently. For me, it’s scary stuff. When I was riding a motorcycle I was a teetotaler. When we go out now, I’m the designated driver. I will not trust myself nor anyone else behind the wheel of a car with even one drink.

    nk (2e1372)

  11. Of course, since he WAS drunk, maybe his speech was slurred and he was blaming “the shoes

    “”F—–g shoes. The shoes are responsible for all the wars in the world.”

    “Are you a shoe?”

    Ya never know. 😉

    Army Lawyer (498217)

  12. I thought that his BAC was awfully low for those sort of comments as well.

    But his 2 apologies are the best apologies ever, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

    I’ve definitely said things I absolutely didn’t mean after too much drinking.

    lunarpuff (a0d30f)

  13. My feelings are mixed.I do believe he’s anti Semitic.Sorry,but the in vino veritas seems applicable.he’ll have to disprove it now.And pointing out Rev Jackson’s prejudice/nastiness
    doesn’t excuse him.
    On the other hand,he could hve a future as an editorialist for a sinking West Coast newspaper.

    lincoln (ce7ddf)

  14. @sharon:
    thank you for writing the brief for celebrity privilege and entitlement!
    your mug shot and mine would be public records, but you support withholding mel gibson’s mug shot from the media.
    no wimpy equal protection of the laws for you!

    assistant devil's advocate (d155e4)

  15. assistant devil’s advocate…

    Do you really go thru the mug shots of ordinary DUI defendants? Do you live in LA county?

    Of course celebrities should not receive preferential treatment.

    But for those that say celebrities should be treated as everyone else, please tell me when ordinary DUI drivers go thru this level of scrutiny.

    You don’t get it both ways.

    lunarpuff (a0d30f)

  16. Sorry, I’m not buying the alcohol excuse. Sure, I’ve said and done things when I was drunk that I wouldn’t have done if I was sober, but they were along the lines of, “You bitch!” Ranting about the Jews doesn’t fall in that category.

    CraigC (9cd021)

  17. “thank you for writing the brief for celebrity privilege and entitlement!
    your mug shot and mine would be public records, but you support withholding mel gibson’s mug shot from the media.
    no wimpy equal protection of the laws for you!”

    Sorry, ADA. I guess it’s just my practicality at work. If the consequences of that “treatment” were the exact same for Gibson as you, I’d have no problem with them releasing the mug shot, etc. But the consequences are not the same. When Mel Gibson has a DUI it’s news. When ADA has one, it isn’t.

    sharon (fecb65)

  18. Why do we give Gibson’s rant any more credence than when some drunk announces “Melancholy Baby ish the greates’ song inna worl’!”

    [Or “The Horst Wessel Song.” — P]

    Charlie (Colorado) (202171)

  19. I think Jimmy Carter should check into rehab for his offensive mouth.

    Vermont Neighbor (a9ae2c)

  20. Sorry, I’m not buying the alcohol excuse. Sure, I’ve said and done things when I was drunk that I wouldn’t have done if I was sober, but they were along the lines of, “You bitch!” Ranting about the Jews doesn’t fall in that category.

    A different category to you perhaps, but this thread is more about what the “bitch” would be feeling, don’t you think?

    lunarpuff (a0d30f)

  21. […] That said, I have always regarded Mel Gibson as a stand-up guy who has managed to stay free of the highest-profile Hollywood traps–notably, multiple short marriages–and who makes pretty good movies when he’s before the camera rather than behind it (I hated Braveheart. Go rent Rob Roy.) Which is why it was disheartening as hell to read of him flying into the bottle, flying up the road, and then flying off about Jews to the arresting officers. The issue that’s boiling now is: Which is the real Mel? (Via Patterico.) […]

    Anwyn’s Notes in the Margin » Mel’s Manners (6acf84)

  22. CraigC

    but they were along the lines of, “You bitch!”

    Then, sir, you are a misogynist. A Woman Hater. A potential rapist and I hope your employer either demotes you or puts you in a position that will disallow you from any significant contact with the group of human beings you so obviously hate.

    Now, do NOT try and explain that you have never acted in hate towards a women. Do NOT try and so crassly weasel out of your obvious hatred by saying you are ashamed. Do not even attempt to ask that someone find substantial evidence of woman-hatred you have committed. It is enough, sir, to know your true heart as revealed by your drunken comments.

    Get thee from the sight of any woman!!

    Darleen (03346c)

  23. Then, sir, you are a misogynist. A Woman Hater. A potential rapist and I hope your employer either demotes you or puts you in a position that will disallow you from any significant contact with the group of human beings you so obviously hate.

    Now, do NOT try and explain that you have never acted in hate towards a women. Do NOT try and so crassly weasel out of your obvious hatred by saying you are ashamed. Do not even attempt to ask that someone find substantial evidence of woman-hatred you have committed. It is enough, sir, to know your true heart as revealed by your drunken comments.

    Get thee from the sight of any woman!!

    Excellent Darleen. Well said. I wish I would have said that!

    lunarpuff (a0d30f)

  24. btw Patterico?

    I would conclude from your post you are not an alcoholic nor have you had any alcoholic family members.

    I have. They are not like you and me.

    Gibson’s statements are unexcusable. But if they came out of an alcoholics relapse, his redemption is in recovery, and it would be unseemly on our part define him as an “anti-semitic” person based only on those remarks.

    The unseemly glee over Gibson’s sin isn’t coming from being “shocked” at anti-semitic statements. The glee is over someone who is a practicing Catholic who fails. For some it confirms the “see? scratch a Christian, find a Jew-hater!” meme used to keep Jews in the proper political camp.

    Darleen (03346c)

  25. After 25 comments the question now arises of forgiveness. Who will forgive, who will not forgive, and why?

    I’ll forgive. Because Mel has given me no cause to doubt his sincerity, and his willingness to make good on his mistake. He did disappoint me, because I expected better of him. But, I know that it is possible for anybody to do something wrong, and so I’m not going to hold him up to an impossible standard.

    This will blow over, life will go on. We’ll find somebody or something new to agitate about. And up in a British Columbian pond salmon with spawn and die, utterly unimpacted by the behavior of a human being thousands of miles away.

    Alan Kellogg (f3cda0)

  26. Gibson’s statements are unexcusable. But if they came out of an alcoholics relapse, his redemption is in recovery, and it would be unseemly on our part define him as an “anti-semitic” person based only on those remarks.

    Um, it’s not based “only” on “those remarks.” He’s also the son of a notorious anti-semite and is on the record as saying that his father, the notorious anti-semite and Holocaust denier, has “never lied” to him. Additionally, his most recently released motion picture is…a passion play. (For the uninitiated, back in medieval Europe, nothing got the peasants psyched up for a good ol’ fashioned pogrom than a passion play portraying the wicked Jews as Christ killers.)

    mike (0bd136)

  27. Sorry, Mike. Passion of the Christ was based on the Gospels. If you want to argue about their viewpoint, that’s fine. But basing a film on Christ’s last day(s) on the Gospels doesn’t make Gibson “anti-Semite.” That the Gospels were misused 600-800 years ago doesn’t change that.

    sharon (03e82c)

  28. Sorry, Mike. Passion of the Christ was based on the Gospels. If you want to argue about their viewpoint, that’s fine. But basing a film on Christ’s last day(s) on the Gospels doesn’t make Gibson “anti-Semite.” That the Gospels were misused 600-800 years ago doesn’t change that.

    If the only piece of evidence against Mel Gibson were “The Passion of the Christ,” I’d be willing to give him a pass. Given recent events, I’m no longer so gracious. And if you need a little additional info. on passion plays and their historic anti-semitism, I’d recommend reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberammergau_Passion_Play

    mike (0bd136)

  29. First of all, I’m not apologizing for Gibson’s behavior. I don’t even buy the “he was drunk” excuse that others seem willing to accept.

    Secondly, I really don’t give a tinker’s damn about the origin of passion plays or any of the other crap you want to lay at the doorstep of Christianity from 600-800 years ago. Gibson’s film was based on the Gospel accounts of Christ’s last days. You got a problem with that, you better take it up with God.

    sharon (03e82c)

  30. I’m guessing that Gibson really doesn’t hate Jews. I’m guessing that the cause and effect are being confused here.

    He probably had an indication that one of the officers was jewish, and then searched his mind for the most disgusting thing he could say to that individual officer.

    In other words, Gibson wasn’t being an a-hole because he’s racist. He was saying racist things because he’s an a-hole.

    bobby_b (28ea38)

  31. First of all, I’m not apologizing for Gibson’s behavior. I don’t even buy the “he was drunk” excuse that others seem willing to accept.

    Secondly, I really don’t give a tinker’s damn about the origin of passion plays or any of the other crap you want to lay at the doorstep of Christianity from 600-800 years ago. Gibson’s film was based on the Gospel accounts of Christ’s last days. You got a problem with that, you better take it up with God.

    My point is merely that the cumulative evidence (Gibson’s own words, his undeniably anti-semitic father and his penchant for pre-Vatican II Catholicism–including the production of a passion play) indicates that Mel very likely is an anti-semite and not just some drunk idiot.

    Can someone produce a passion play that is not anti-semitic? Of course. In the context of Mel Gibson’s life, he’s no longer entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

    mike (0bd136)

  32. I agree with bobby_b, Comment #31. Joseph Wambaugh wrote about a police officer who told his black partner (other policeman in squad car, sheesh that I have to explain it) that he wished that there was a word as dirty as “nigger” that applied to everybody. There is a lot of truth in that. Racial epithets are nastier than mother#$%^& and if you really want to be nasty that’s where you go.

    nk (54c569)

  33. Gibson’s film was based on the Gospel accounts of Christ’s last days. You got a problem with that, you better take it up with God.

    Or maybe with the humans who claim to speak for him?

    Xrlq (f52b4f)

  34. “When Mel Gibson has a DUI it’s news. When ADA has one, it isn’t.”

    Mel Gibson gets plenty of perks from his life of celebrity that regular folk don’t (like millions of dollars in income from movies etc. which are based on his being a popular public persona). It doesn’t seem unfair to me that if he lives by that celebrity that he has some additional consequences from getting busted for DUI because that is also publically aired. Poor Mel, I cry for his tough life. . .

    I’ll be more than happy to be treated “equally” as soon as somebody makes me a celebrity.

    There are no exceptions in the California Public Records Act for celebrities. Government documents (like booking photos) should be available to the public regardless of who the subject is. Public access to government records is an important way to assure government accountability.

    C Student (59bfb8)

  35. Mike,

    Gibson’s production of The Passion of the Christ is NOT evidence of his anti-semitism, but it is the reason (along with his Catholicism) that so many are jumping to excoriate him. It’s a movie based on the Gospels. That’s it. That’s why I said if you have a problem with this, take it up with God.

    And C Student, I guess if you have the talent and work as hard as Mel Gibson did to become a celebrity, made the sacrifices necessary to achieve that celebrity, and live with the constant scrutiny which accompanies that celebrity, then you will, most certainly, be entitled to the privileges associated with it. If releasing Mel Gibson’s mug shot held the same consequences that releasing your did, then I think doing so would be proper. But given what would happen, it was probably prudent for them not to release it.

    sharon (fecb65)

  36. Government documents (like booking photos) should be available to the public regardless of who the subject is. Public access to government records is an important way to assure government accountability.

    Actually, those are NOT “public record” until they go into a court file upon filing of a complaint.

    At least in my So. Cal county. Not one of the local police agencies I work for will release police reports. There is just too much information that is covered by CA privacy laws and much has to be redacted from the Court’s copy.

    What gets me about all the kerfuffle about Gibson is that the story of a moslem who invades a Jewish Federation Center and shoots and murders Jews while demanding the USA “withdraw” weapons from the Zionist Entity gets ONE day’s worth of play…while the media keeps flogging one alcoholic’s relapse rants.

    I’m just trying to figure out whether it is cowardice or bigotry that animates the press in this instance.

    Darleen (03346c)

  37. mike

    PotC is not anti-semitic. Period. And having an anti-semitic father doesn’t make a person an anti-semite either. Even when one is put in the position of being baited into denouncing one’s father in public.

    If Gibson’s singular rant is “proof” of his anti-semitism, then Hillary Clinton is anti-semitic. So was President Truman.

    Darleen (03346c)

  38. lol@sharon and the other celebrity apologists, showing the exquisite deference of their subordinate place in society, collaborating with the forces that would have buried this story before it emerged, carrying water for catholics (even renegade, non-roman catholics like the gibsons), supporting the disparate, more civilized treatment by law enforcement of the quality, blaming mel’s troubles on the media, forgiving mel’s 87 in a 45 zone with a .12 because, well, he’s just so handsome and godly and what’s on the other side but just jews? sharon, we have a chronic shortage of able servants where i live in sw oregon, and the subservience stamped indelibly all over your persona tentatively qualifies you for a position on my staff (subject to examination in your regular duties, which would be cleaning and oiling fishing gear and firearms, cleaning fish and dressing out game, washing and waxing my 4×4 and on infrequent occasions, rolling tight, perfectly cylindrical blunts). the good news is that i never take my ease in my servants’ quarters (i don’t need to hear that you’re disappointed at this), the bad news is that i’m a pagan and i expect heartfelt participation in pagan ceremonies.

    assistant devil's advocate (fae77d)

  39. ADA

    Maybe you should be watching your drinking, especially in the wee hours.

    Darleen (03346c)

  40. Get with the program, children. Your marching orders are not to defend Gibson, but to paint him as being an anti-semitic lefty all along. “Chummy” will be the buzz word…as in chummy with Michael Moore. You’ll be getting more from Rush & Hannity today no doubt. Meanwhile Glenn Greenwald has the details. I’d leave the link, but I know you all know the way.

    Asinistra (c493b3)

  41. “lol@sharon and the other celebrity apologists, showing the exquisite deference of their subordinate place in society, collaborating with the forces that would have buried this story before it emerged, carrying water for catholics (even renegade, non-roman catholics like the gibsons), supporting the disparate, more civilized treatment by law enforcement of the quality, blaming mel’s troubles on the media, forgiving mel’s 87 in a 45 zone with a .12 because, well, he’s just so handsome and godly and what’s on the other side but just jews?”

    Who’s apologizing for Mel Gibson? You must be addressing this to someone else. Because here’s my comments:

    “I have no sympathy for Gibson and I don’t buy the “he was drunk” excuse for his anti-Semitic remarks”–9:58 a.m. 8/1

    “First of all, I’m not apologizing for Gibson’s behavior. I don’t even buy the “he was drunk” excuse that others seem willing to accept.” 10:04 a.m. 8/2

    You might try reading before spewing, ADA. But then, I guess you wouldn’t be able to wind yourself up in a fury because someone actually sees the difference between a public figure and a private one. And Darleen is right. The privacy concerns over mug shots are enormous.

    And I really want to know why ADA is soooo concerned about Mel’s mugshot but doesn’t have a single comment about the Seattle shooting, which is far worse.

    sharon (03e82c)

  42. uh, this thread isn’t about the seattle shooting. that’s a red herring along the lines of “hey, mel didn’t actually shoot any jews, so he isn’t too bad.”
    i am “soooooo concerned” about the disparate, kid-gloves treatment of certain people in society, because it makes a mockery of “equal justice under law.”
    “the privacy concerns of mug shots are enormous.” um, what exactly are these concerns? if they’re so enormous, how come 99.9% of arrestees have their mug shots released right away? if you call for a general principle that all mug shots should be withheld, i would support that, but i don’t support multiple tiers of justice for people based on their box office, so which is it?
    i’m not angry at you, sharon. society needs what leona helmsley called the “little people”, and i will occasionally express gratitude for your enabling deference. it’s good to know your place.

    assistant devil's advocate (c85d84)

  43. When all the hoopla dies down, Mel will get a slap on the wrist, the bar will face a zillion dollar law suit for serving a drunk and the bartender who served him will get fired.

    Tom Bullock (d8da01)

  44. “uh, this thread isn’t about the seattle shooting. that’s a red herring along the lines of “hey, mel didn’t actually shoot any jews, so he isn’t too bad.””

    It’s understandable that you would consider real events in the world to be a red herring. That way you don’t have to address them. I understand this isn’t a thread about the Seattle shooting, but, as another person pointed out, whether or not Mel Gibson’s mugshot is released to the public doesn’t kill people. People shooting up Jewish centers does.

    “i am “soooooo concerned” about the disparate, kid-gloves treatment of certain people in society, because it makes a mockery of “equal justice under law.””

    Really? So you think every time a police officer treats a person differently it “makes a mockery” of our justice system? Have you ever been given a warning instead of a ticket? Does that “make a mockery” of the system? I doubt you thought so.

    ” if they’re so enormous, how come 99.9% of arrestees have their mug shots released right away?””

    Do you have a site for this 99.9% figure, or did you just pull it out of your ass along with your assumption that I was “apologizing” for Mel Gibson?

    “if you call for a general principle that all mug shots should be withheld, i would support that, but i don’t support multiple tiers of justice for people based on their box office, so which is it?”

    I have no problem with them withholding mugshots. And getting your knickers in a twist because Mel Gibson’s was not publicized shows your immaturity. Again, if publishing Mel Gibson’s mug shot had the same newsworthiness as publishing yours, I would have no problem with it. But it doesn’t.

    “i’m not angry at you, sharon.”

    Oh, good. I was sooo worried about it. Not.

    “society needs what leona helmsley called the “little people”, and i will occasionally express gratitude for your enabling deference. it’s good to know your place.”

    Yes, as a matter of fact, i DO know my place. It’s pointing out dumbasses who are more concerned about celebrities that real crimes.

    sharon (03e82c)

  45. driving 87 in a 45 zone with a .12 isn’t a real crime?? as the l.a. times noted, he didn’t even get charged with the available speed enhancement for his conduct which endangered innocent drivers and passengers on the same road.
    no, i have never gotten a warning, on the rare instances of being pulled over, it’s a ticket.
    what makes mel gibson such an attractive target isn’t his celebrityhood, it’s his public piety, his preachiness. we hear about him building a church in malibu, then we hear that he owns malibu! the photo of him holding two women and his tequila bottle says it all. isn’t he married? i would fear the wife in that situation a lot more than any jewish studio head.
    equal protection of the law is a civil right.

    assistant devil's advocate (c85d84)

  46. it’s his public piety, his preachiness.

    Quotes?

    Pablo (efa871)

  47. “no, i have never gotten a warning, on the rare instances of being pulled over, it’s a ticket.”

    Sounds like a personal problem then. I’ve been given a warning. More than once. But I guess I must be a celebrity “making a mockery” of our criminal justice system. Or maybe the police officer was giving me a break.

    You do hit the nail on the head when you speak of Gibson’s “piety.” Better to be a complete asshole 100% of the time and not slip up, eh? THAT’S the real sin. Better to roll with the pigs openly like liberals do (and brag about it) than fall off the wagon. Sheesh. That’s a helluva argument you’re making.

    sharon (03e82c)

  48. The cop was a jew, and drunk Mel was just trying to piss him off cause that’s what drunks do to cops who stop them. End of story. Doesn’t mean Mel hates jews.

    Carlos (98df3a)

  49. Darlene

    Although you are right about many parts of police reports being exempted from the California Public Records Act, the booking photographs generally are available. Marin County for example makes them available on their website pursuant to the Public Records Act. As I understand it, the PRA is also why the LA Sheriff’s Dept has released previous booking photographs (Like Nolte’s – hilarious). Additionally, the fact of arrest, the name of the arrestee, the date, the charges etc. are all available under the PRA (Gov’t Code 6254(f)(1) and (2) – i believe)

    I don’t feel much sympathy for Mel if these disclosures have more of an effect on him because he’s a celebrity. He’s had a pretty good life by his celebrity and it was his choice to live in the public light.

    On the other hand, you’re correct that this “news” story isn’t really very newsworthy compared to all the other stuff that is going on in the world.

    C Student (59bfb8)

  50. akh – correction – Marin County only makes the booking information (charge etc) available, not the mug shot. LASD’s website does the same.

    According to an CA Atty General opinion in 2003 (03-205) the Sheriff has discretion to release the booking photograph under the Calif. PRA. Of course since Baca has previously released other celebrities booking photos, the initial refusal to release Gibson’s did smack of preferential treatment.

    C Student (59bfb8)


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