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	<title>Comments on: Tookie the Ducky Beats the Rap</title>
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	<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/</link>
	<description>Harangues that just make sense</description>
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		<title>By: Royalty Free Beats For One Dollar</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-64591</link>
		<dc:creator>Royalty Free Beats For One Dollar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Royalty Free Beats For One Dollar 

At 

http://upbeat.tk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Royalty Free Beats For One Dollar </p>
<p>At </p>
<p><a href="http://upbeat.tk" rel="nofollow">http://upbeat.tk</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-36011</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is from so many months ago, but I can&#039;t let this stand, TNugent.  I realize I was unclear with regards to who ought to forgive, so let me clarify: I was specifically referring to those of us on the sidelines.  I thought this was apparent when I stated that &quot;I would never try to force my lofty views on those who have been victimized.&quot;

If you had actually read through my post and attempted to understand my viewpoint, you might&#039;ve correctly interpreted that &quot;lofty&quot; was actually a self-depreciating reference.  You also might have found that my &quot;advocacy&quot; against the death penalty has everything to do with my religious worldview--and nothing do with having &quot;little regard for the lives of victims.&quot;  Your false dichotomy (to oppose death penalty = little regard for lives of victims) doesn&#039;t fit--and I suspect you knew that already.  So kindly show a little generosity of spirit, perhaps as I did above--when I chose to say &quot;I don’t begrudge people who disagree with [me] over this issue&quot; instead of something like &lt;i&gt;&quot;There’s nothing &#039;lofty&#039; about having so little regard for human life that you’re only willing to advocate for it in the form of pre-sentient fetuses.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is from so many months ago, but I can&#8217;t let this stand, TNugent.  I realize I was unclear with regards to who ought to forgive, so let me clarify: I was specifically referring to those of us on the sidelines.  I thought this was apparent when I stated that &#8220;I would never try to force my lofty views on those who have been victimized.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you had actually read through my post and attempted to understand my viewpoint, you might&#8217;ve correctly interpreted that &#8220;lofty&#8221; was actually a self-depreciating reference.  You also might have found that my &#8220;advocacy&#8221; against the death penalty has everything to do with my religious worldview&#8211;and nothing do with having &#8220;little regard for the lives of victims.&#8221;  Your false dichotomy (to oppose death penalty = little regard for lives of victims) doesn&#8217;t fit&#8211;and I suspect you knew that already.  So kindly show a little generosity of spirit, perhaps as I did above&#8211;when I chose to say &#8220;I don’t begrudge people who disagree with [me] over this issue&#8221; instead of something like <i>&#8220;There’s nothing &#8216;lofty&#8217; about having so little regard for human life that you’re only willing to advocate for it in the form of pre-sentient fetuses.&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title>By: TNugent</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28220</link>
		<dc:creator>TNugent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28220</guid>
		<description>Tom, you&#039;re not the victim.  So, when you suggest forgiveness for Tookie, you are indeed attempting to impose your views on others.  And don&#039;t pretend they&#039;re lofty.  There&#039;s nothing &quot;lofty&quot; about having so little regard for the lives of victims that the most you&#039;re willing to advocate for a murderer like Tookie is life in prison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, you&#8217;re not the victim.  So, when you suggest forgiveness for Tookie, you are indeed attempting to impose your views on others.  And don&#8217;t pretend they&#8217;re lofty.  There&#8217;s nothing &#8220;lofty&#8221; about having so little regard for the lives of victims that the most you&#8217;re willing to advocate for a murderer like Tookie is life in prison.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig R. Harnon</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28137</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig R. Harnon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28137</guid>
		<description>Tom, it is not my place nor yours to forgive Mr. Williams, even if forgiveness required no confession or remorse. That is for God--or, if he had asked for one, one of God&#039;s earthly representatives--and for Mr. Williams&#039;s victims to give.

Only you can decide the central moral question for yourself but as to the central legal question, whether government should take life in punishment, we have a representative government. If a state&#039;s electorate say that it should and the Constitution permits that it should and 12 jurors say that it should and the requirements of procedural due process have been met then yes, the government should take people&#039;s lives as punishment for those crimes which society finds to be of such gravity that no other punishment will meet the requirements of justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, it is not my place nor yours to forgive Mr. Williams, even if forgiveness required no confession or remorse. That is for God&#8211;or, if he had asked for one, one of God&#8217;s earthly representatives&#8211;and for Mr. Williams&#8217;s victims to give.</p>
<p>Only you can decide the central moral question for yourself but as to the central legal question, whether government should take life in punishment, we have a representative government. If a state&#8217;s electorate say that it should and the Constitution permits that it should and 12 jurors say that it should and the requirements of procedural due process have been met then yes, the government should take people&#8217;s lives as punishment for those crimes which society finds to be of such gravity that no other punishment will meet the requirements of justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Patterico</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28124</link>
		<dc:creator>Patterico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28124</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But the joyful grave-dancing on this site and others is reprehensible to me. Celebrating another’s death is barbaric, no matter how much you may think he “deserved it”&lt;/em&gt;

I assume you&#039;re talking about comments and not posts; I don&#039;t remember doing any &quot;joyful grave-dancing&quot; here.  I say in the post above that Tookie&#039;s execution is not a happy ending, but it&#039;s as close as you can get to one under the circumstances.  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything wrong with society taking a certain grim satisfaction in seeing justice done, though I agree that some of the comments on the site have taken the celebration further than I personally would.

I&#039;m not shedding any tears over his death, I can tell you that.  I&#039;ll save those for people like my Dad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>But the joyful grave-dancing on this site and others is reprehensible to me. Celebrating another’s death is barbaric, no matter how much you may think he “deserved it”</em></p>
<p>I assume you&#8217;re talking about comments and not posts; I don&#8217;t remember doing any &#8220;joyful grave-dancing&#8221; here.  I say in the post above that Tookie&#8217;s execution is not a happy ending, but it&#8217;s as close as you can get to one under the circumstances.  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything wrong with society taking a certain grim satisfaction in seeing justice done, though I agree that some of the comments on the site have taken the celebration further than I personally would.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not shedding any tears over his death, I can tell you that.  I&#8217;ll save those for people like my Dad.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28123</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28123</guid>
		<description>The symbolic importance of forgiveness, TNugent, unfortunately lies not with the purpetrator but the victim.  It has nothing to do with whether the accused is &quot;guilty&quot; or &quot;remorseful&quot; or &quot;deserves it&quot; or not.  It&#039;s about how the victim can find true closure and peace--and whether it can come from the death of another.  It is my spiritual understanding that it cannot.  Yet, we plow on ahead with false promises of new life through death--and sacrifice our humanity as we go.

I don&#039;t begrudge people who disagree with over this issue.  This is just my personal belief; I would never try to force my lofty views on those who have been victimized.  But the joyful grave-dancing on this site and others is reprehensible to me.  &lt;i&gt;Celebrating another&#039;s death is barbaric, no matter how much you may think he &quot;deserved it&quot;&lt;/i&gt;; Judeo-Christian values indeed.  If you have a spiritual outlook at all, premature death is nothing less than a tragedy before God, a potentially redeemable soul that humans are too quick to give up on, when I believe that instead, God never does.

As a post script, let me say that I think that the worst thing about the death penalty debate that resurfaces whenever someone else gets executed is that it turns into a &quot;is this person good enough for clemency or not&quot; discussion, and nothing deeper than that, as if the collective question of whether or not the government should kill people as punishment depends varies on a case by case basis.  The central moral question, in my opinion, is whether the government should kill people as punishment or not.  Not if it should in &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt; case or &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The symbolic importance of forgiveness, TNugent, unfortunately lies not with the purpetrator but the victim.  It has nothing to do with whether the accused is &#8220;guilty&#8221; or &#8220;remorseful&#8221; or &#8220;deserves it&#8221; or not.  It&#8217;s about how the victim can find true closure and peace&#8211;and whether it can come from the death of another.  It is my spiritual understanding that it cannot.  Yet, we plow on ahead with false promises of new life through death&#8211;and sacrifice our humanity as we go.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t begrudge people who disagree with over this issue.  This is just my personal belief; I would never try to force my lofty views on those who have been victimized.  But the joyful grave-dancing on this site and others is reprehensible to me.  <i>Celebrating another&#8217;s death is barbaric, no matter how much you may think he &#8220;deserved it&#8221;</i>; Judeo-Christian values indeed.  If you have a spiritual outlook at all, premature death is nothing less than a tragedy before God, a potentially redeemable soul that humans are too quick to give up on, when I believe that instead, God never does.</p>
<p>As a post script, let me say that I think that the worst thing about the death penalty debate that resurfaces whenever someone else gets executed is that it turns into a &#8220;is this person good enough for clemency or not&#8221; discussion, and nothing deeper than that, as if the collective question of whether or not the government should kill people as punishment depends varies on a case by case basis.  The central moral question, in my opinion, is whether the government should kill people as punishment or not.  Not if it should in <i>this</i> case or <i>that</i> case.</p>
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		<title>By: TNugent</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28120</link>
		<dc:creator>TNugent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28120</guid>
		<description>A bit over the top, Tom, especially the forgiveness part.  It&#039;s funny (but not ha ha funny) to speak of forgiveness, when Tookie acknowledged his guilt, much less asked for anyone&#039;s forgiveness.

I understand opposition to the death penalty, and there certainly is a faith-based argument against capital punishment (probably the only persuasive anti-death penalty argument).  And I even understand making someone like Tookie the poster boy for abolition.  It was the bottom of the ninth, with the bases loaded and the abolitionists down by 3 runs.  Trying to save Tookie was a swing for the fences -- succeed, and capital punishment is a thing of the past, because if we won&#039;t execute Tookie, there&#039;s probably no one who deserves the death penalty.  Strike three.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit over the top, Tom, especially the forgiveness part.  It&#8217;s funny (but not ha ha funny) to speak of forgiveness, when Tookie acknowledged his guilt, much less asked for anyone&#8217;s forgiveness.</p>
<p>I understand opposition to the death penalty, and there certainly is a faith-based argument against capital punishment (probably the only persuasive anti-death penalty argument).  And I even understand making someone like Tookie the poster boy for abolition.  It was the bottom of the ninth, with the bases loaded and the abolitionists down by 3 runs.  Trying to save Tookie was a swing for the fences &#8212; succeed, and capital punishment is a thing of the past, because if we won&#8217;t execute Tookie, there&#8217;s probably no one who deserves the death penalty.  Strike three.</p>
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		<title>By: Justice Frankfurter</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28108</link>
		<dc:creator>Justice Frankfurter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28108</guid>
		<description>Well, that&#039;s the way the Tookie crumbles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s the way the Tookie crumbles.</p>
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		<title>By: Opinionated Voice</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28103</link>
		<dc:creator>Opinionated Voice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28103</guid>
		<description>[...] Update (13/12/05): Tookie was executed by lethal injection and was subsequently declared dead at 12:35 AM by the California Department of Corrections. MarksBrain asks; &#8220;what have we gained?&#8221; &#8230;one less murderer in our midst! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Update (13/12/05): Tookie was executed by lethal injection and was subsequently declared dead at 12:35 AM by the California Department of Corrections. MarksBrain asks; &#8220;what have we gained?&#8221; &#8230;one less murderer in our midst! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: steve miller</title>
		<link>http://patterico.com/2005/12/12/tookie-the-ducky-beats-the-rap/comment-page-1/#comment-28092</link>
		<dc:creator>steve miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://patterico.com/?p=4040#comment-28092</guid>
		<description>I am sorry about the 4 people murdered by Tookie - the crimes for which he was convicted. I am sorry for a society that does not keep innocent people like those 4 people safe from violent criminals such as Tookie.

I&#039;m sorry for Tookie, too, because he turned a great gift - his own life - into nothing. He wasted his life, and he took the lives of 4 other people.

Funny how Tookie is in the news, but the 4 people he killed 25 years ago are forgotten, as if they never lived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry about the 4 people murdered by Tookie &#8211; the crimes for which he was convicted. I am sorry for a society that does not keep innocent people like those 4 people safe from violent criminals such as Tookie.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry for Tookie, too, because he turned a great gift &#8211; his own life &#8211; into nothing. He wasted his life, and he took the lives of 4 other people.</p>
<p>Funny how Tookie is in the news, but the 4 people he killed 25 years ago are forgotten, as if they never lived.</p>
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