Patterico's Pontifications

11/2/2005

Max Boot on the Lies of Lyin’ Joe Wilson

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:12 am



Max Boot has an excellent op-ed about Lyin’ Joe Wilson’s lies in this morning’s L.A. Times. Boot lists the high points of Lyin Joe’s hit parade of dishonest statements, debunks the idea that Republicans lied about pre-war intelligence, and concludes:

So much for the lies that led to war. What we’re left with is the lies that led to the antiwar movement. Good thing for Wilson and his pals that deceiving the press and the public isn’t a crime.

Exactly.

59 Responses to “Max Boot on the Lies of Lyin’ Joe Wilson”

  1. I agree: see http://new-demosthenes.blogspot.com/

    Why isn’t Joe Wilson being prosecuted for lying to Congress?

    -demosthenes

    demosthenes (5ba388)

  2. I had to look twice to make sure the article was in the LAT. Sure, it’s a good overview of Joe Wilson’s lies, but I wouldn’t have imagined the LAT would print it. I’m scratching my head and looking over my shoulder, waiting for the next shoe to fall.

    I’d sure like to listen in on the chit chat in the newsroom today. I’ll bet there are more than a few red faces and raised voices among the MSM’s noisy tribe of preening media professionals this morning.

    Someone is going to have to explain how Boot’s Op/Ed got past the usual gatekeepers. Now, I’d even buy a copy of the LAT to read that story, if I couldn’t get if free online.

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  3. Black Jack:

    I’m shocked every time the Times prints Boot’s columns. 🙂

    Anthony (Los Angeles) (f93591)

  4. LA Times sure got alot of mileage on the debate over whether Bush said Iraq “sought” or “bought” uranium in his SOTU speech. Sometimes they would slip up, but usually they get it right and say “sought”, but then go on to insinuate that Bush was lying about Iraq buying uranium. The whole thing is so silly.

    For all we know, Iraq’s WMD work could have all ended up in Syria anyway. And now Iran wants to obliterate Israel. Way to keep your eye on the ball LA Times.

    Shredstar (532850)

  5. Black Jack:

    The LAT has had a decent opinion page for some time now, in my opinion. Heck, the Sunday Opinion section has even run *me* twice. The editorials are often boneheaded — but even those have shown some improvement.

    Patterico (4a5647)

  6. Regarding Max Boots idiotic article that you link to..It is preaching to the choir. Its just a lot of twisted BS convincing only to the likes of the posters on this board who wouldn’t criticize Bush if heavens opened up and the voice of God were head saying “Bush is a deceiver!” They would say “ No he isn’t!”

    This whole attempt by the radical right to avoid the facts and take responsibility for their disastrous actions has reached the level of insanity.

    Notice how Patterico is so upset about Joe Wilson..He repeatedly calls him a liar and condemns the media for once again hiding the truth.

    Things that Patterico doesn’t ask or seem to care to get answers about however include..…

    Why did President Bush say in 2002 that “Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program” when two critical reports – an IAEA one from 1997 and a CIA one from 2001 – made clear that there was absolutely no evidence of that claim? And why in 2003, did both Condoleezza Rice ignore these intelligence documents and insist that Bush’s nuclear claim was “absolutely supportable” when in fact it was not?

    Why in his 2003 State of the Union address did President Bush claim that aluminum tubes Iraq purchased were for uranium enrichment, when the White House received intelligence in 2002 that such a claim was untrue? And why did Condoleezza Rice in July of 2003 claim that the intelligence community’s “consensus view” was that the tubes were being used for nuclear weapons, when in fact a March 2003 IAEA report specifically said that wasn’t true?

    Why in late 2002 did President Bush say definitively that Iraq “could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes” and that Iraq definitely “possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons” when, in fact, Bush’s own Defense Intelligence Agency said it had no proof to support these claims?

    Why did President Bush and Vice President Cheney repeatedly claim that Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda had an operational relationship, and why did Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claim there was “bulletproof” evidence of such a relationship, when intelligence and foreign government sources repeatedly told the White House that wasn’t true?

    Why did Bush end the inspections and declare war when the inspectors from the UN and IAEA were everyplace the US insisted there were WMDs and finding nothing?

    Needless to say there is no concern about whether or not there may have been a concerted effort at the highest levels of government to silence a critic of the administration through illegal means and not much concern that a woman who was working on a program to find real WMDs was outed and the program destroyed and no concern or outrage that Karl Rove considered Vallorie Plame fair game.

    No, the real concern here is defending Bush by ignoring questions like these and instead making a ruckus about whether or not Wilson was truthful in regards to the role his wife had in sending him on his mission and the fact that several pro-Bush Republicans claimed he said one thing in the report to the CIA and another in that famous column in the Times. Now those are really important issues folks because the main interest here is protecting G W Bush and restoring integrity to the White House and improving Americas image abroad…..and a bit of a boost in the price of Halliburton stock wouldn’t hurt either!!

    You really ought to put the ostrich up as your websites symbol

    Charlie (8ea405)

  7. Who Did What?
    Covert questions
    By William F Buckley, JR

    The importance of the law against revealing the true professional identity of an agent is advertised by the draconian punishment, under the federal code, for violating it. In the swirl of the Libby affair, one loses sight of the real offense, and it becomes almost inapprehensible what it is that Cheney/Libby/Rove got themselves into. But the sacredness of the law against betraying a clandestine soldier of the republic cannot be slighted.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200511011324.asp

    Joe (350eea)

  8. Joe.. Lets tell it like it is. The outing of a secret agent and the destruction of a program to find WMDs..a REAL program to find WMds…and the possible explosion of a nuclear device in this country and the killing of millions is the price Patterico and Black Jack and others are perfectly willing to pay if that is what is takes to protect G W Bush and this criminal administration. Thats why for every one word about the real crime and the real threat and this needless war, they spin thousands talking about the Wilson red herring. That is a fact.

    Tell me Patterico, was Valorie Plame “fair game” as Rove said? You apparently think a man with that attitude and the lying jackass who hired him and whose every move depends on him should both remain in power no matter what, dont you? Dont even pretend to be an honest seeker of truth. You’re a Bush spinmeister along with the facts and that is obvious.

    Charlie (8ea405)

  9. Suppose Valerie put Lyin’ Joe up to it. Nothing else makes sense. Then the pieces all fall into place, and it’s clear that Scooter Libby has done his country a great service. Zell Miller elaborates in yesterday’s AJC (Scott Johnson provides a link, at Powerline).

    TNugent (6128b4)

  10. Charlie,

    My unwillingness to accept Joe Wilson’s obvious lies in no way indicates any acceptance of the use of WMDs here or anywhere else, much less any loss of life. You spout nonsense at my expense, and seek to discredit my positions not with information, but with deranged hyperboly. Well, it won’t work, you can’t browbeat me into silence.

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  11. Hmmm…the article omits a number of points.

    Such as the fact that no actual evidence was ever provided that Wilson’s wife got him the job. Some people at the CIA thought she had suggested him first, while others maintain to this day that she did not. She certainly did not have the authority to make the decision to give him the job. So it certainly seems reasonable that Wilson believed that she did not get him the job, and was speaking the truth as he knew it.

    Similarly, the article neglects to mention that Wilson clearly believed that his report debunked the Niger connection, and that intelligence analysts at the State Dept. agreed with him, (although a CIA analyst disagreed). So again, it seems entirely reasonable that Wilson was telling the truth as he knew it. And as it turned out, Wilson and the State Dept. analyst were right, while the CIA analyst (perhaps the one behind the notorious “slam dunk” WMD claim?) turned out to be wrong–Saddam never even came close to acquiring uranium from Niger.

    So far, the only person for whom we have strong evidence of lies is Scooter Libby

    tgibbs (e9ce39)

  12. TGibbs, why do you assume that “got him the job” means she had to have the authority to send him to Niger? Nice bit of hairsplitting on an unimportant point. What is clear is that Valerie Plame recommended Lyin’ Joe for the job, and Lyin’ Joe lied about his wife giving that recommendation. Why do you s’pose that Lyin’ Joe would lie about something like that? Maybe it’s because he and his wife intended that gathered intelligence evidence would be distorted, by him, of course, as she clearly couldn’t have gotten away with it. So, no, you’re wrong. It’s pretty clear that Lyin’ Joe lied.

    TNugent (6128b4)

  13. TGibbs, why do you assume that “got him the job” means she had to have the authority to send him to Niger?

    Since Wilson is the one being accused of lying, the only thing that is relevant here is what it meant to Wilson. Given that Wilson’s wife did not have the authority to give him the job, it is certainly reasonable for him to honestly believe that he did not get the job from her. And as noted, recollections within the CIA differ as to whether she was even the first to raise his name.

    Maybe it’s because he and his wife intended that gathered intelligence evidence would be distorted, by him, of course, as she clearly couldn’t have gotten away with it.

    This seems to ignore the fact that Wilson’s (and the State Department’s) conclusions, based upon his mission, that Iraq never got anywhere close to getting Nigerian uranium turned out to be correct. It is unfair to accuse the White House of lying about Iraq’s stocks of WMD, simply because they turned out to be wrong–but it is ridiculous to accuse Wilson of lying about WMD when he turned out to be right.

    So far, the only people for whom we have strong evidence of lying is Libby (strong enough to convince a grand jury to indict) and either Rove or McClellan (there doesn’t seem to be much wiggle room here; either Rove lied to McClellan and through him to us, or else McClellan lied to us about what Rove told him).

    tgibbs (e9ce39)

  14. All the “evidence” of Wilson supposedly lying are in the highly suspect Senate Intelligence report.

    Anyone with a scrap of intellectual honestly who wants to use that to claim Wilson lied has a responsibility to read Wilson’s public letter in response to the report.

    And then to ask yourself what the followup was from the committee.

    tubino (cb353f)

  15. TGibbs, try to understand, the importance of whether Scooter lied or Lyin’ Joe lied is primarily political, unless of course, you’re Scooter or Lyin’ Joe. If Valerie recommended Lyin’ Joe for the job knowing that he would, as he did, of course, allow his own political positions to lead him to distort the gathered intelligence evidence, then whether she had the power to send him to Niger isn’t that important — her recommendation obviously had some influence, and that’s enough to conclude that she acted improperly. Not saying it’s enough to lock her up, but I don’t really care if Lyin’ Joe or Valerie go to jail. It’s enough that what they did is made known to the public, and that the rules are changed to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

    TNugent (6128b4)

  16. Tubino, why would anyone take Lyin’ Joe’s word that he didn’t lie?

    TNugent (6128b4)

  17. Oh, and of course this is all a smokescreen anyway. It’s just the continuation of plan A: smear Wilson, try to take attention away from the pro-active lies of the WHIGs.

    It’s not working.

    Heh.

    tubino (cb353f)

  18. T Nugent have you every considered the possibility that Bush lied and that this is all part of his attempts to cover that lie? Ever think that maybe just maybe he is not what you think he is?
    Your post is an amazing example of self deception!

    Heres an idea. Maybe Wilson is a secret agent of a group of Martians who is planted here to cause us to lose faith in Bush and turn against him and who eventually plan on colonizing Earth and making slaves of us all. You remember those missing months in the Bush guard duty? Fact is he was busy fighting off space aliens but of course he cant say that for fear of panicking people and the press is under the control of the aliens who are trying to undermine him!!! Bet you never realized that!!

    And Black Jack is Valorie Palme “fair game” AS Karl Rove said?

    Charlie (8ea405)

  19. TNugent,

    Wilson addresses the report point for point, and shows the internal inconsistencies, and how he was mispresented. In other words, you can actually evaluate Wilson’s response using other materials.

    It’s not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of evaluating the materials. The report had to contradict itself to make the smears.

    Or you can step back and look at the bigger picture, at who was working hard to get the Niger forgeries accepted into Bush’s talk in Cincinnati (Hadley, WHIGs), and who was getting smacked (CIA, Wilson) for pointing out that the forgeries were obviously crude forgeries.

    I snatched this comment from another blog (firedoglake?) because I think it makes a good and valid point:

    My own minor addendum to all this is the institutional dynamic involved. Many in Cheney’s circle, including Cheney himself as well as key players in WHIG, OSP cut their intel teeth serving old B-Team operation to second-guess CIA conclusions about the Soviets. The idea being that the CIA was not sufficiently hyping the threat. Turns out the B-Team was dead wrong but that doesn’t appear to have ever given any of them pause. After the USSR collapsed and Clinton got elected they switched their obsession to the ME and Iraq in particular, and applied the same set of mistaken, amateurish, ideology-driven tools to the problem.

    I think you’ve got a Pros vs Amateurs thing going on. I think Valerie Wilson was a Pro, and the Pro faction at CIA had an interest in exposing the lunacy of their new Neocon, ex-B-Team overlords who were trying to do the whole B-Team thing all over only now with real heavy political weight behind ’em. There’s even a theory that the Niger forgeries were part of a scheme to expose the ineptitude of the Neocons (their obvious crudeness meant as a trap only an amateur would fall for).
    I suspect this is the lens through which the WHIGnuts viewed the Wilson mission. “Rogue operation!” they told themselves (and us), meaning “An operation by the non-Team Players.” You’ve got two factions dedicated to discrediting the other. And it looks very much now like the Pros are going to come out on top, while the Amateurs get seriously burned.

    tubino (cb353f)

  20. One question for all Bushies.. I defy any of you to tell me that if any Democratic president had done exactly the same thing as our beloved Bush and made exactly the same statements and carried out the exact same policy with exactly the same resule, that you would not be up in arms about it!! If you say “No” then I know your not being honest with me or yourself. I can honestly say if any President no matter what party had done this I would have demanded his removal.. Its a hell of a lot more serious than parsing words about sex with a willing intern!! At least where I come from it is..

    Charlie (8ea405)

  21. Remember that Wilson was sent to check on the Niger uranium connection.

    Remember?

    Check out Josh Marshal l today on what is still coming out about the role of Ital. intelligence on this.

    Wilson’s version is holding up great.

    The WHIG pushback on it makes no sense, in light of the White House retreat on the issue after the SOTU address 16 words!!!

    How the hell do guys like TNugent keep defending the guys who admitted they screwed up???

    Reread the indictment of Libby. Wilson seems to have gotten it awfully close to right about Rove, who may still be indicted.

    tubino (cb353f)

  22. defy any of you to tell me that if any Democratic president had done exactly the same thing as our beloved Bush and made exactly the same statements and carried out the exact same policy with exactly the same resule, that you would not be up in arms about it!!

    Not really, I believe in American Empire.

    Angry Clam (a7c6b1)

  23. Black Jack your words say one thing but your actions say another. You are all upset over what you think are Wilsons lies and have made that very clear..but how many posts can you direct me to that indicate your upsetness with the outing of a secret agent who was working on finding WMds? How upset are you at the leaking of her name and how many posts have you made demanding answers to who did that and why?
    Say as you will my friend but your real concerns are evident in your postings.

    Charlie (8ea405)

  24. TGibbs, try to understand, the importance of whether Scooter lied or Lyin’ Joe lied is primarily political, unless of course, you’re Scooter or Lyin’ Joe.

    It doesn’t seem to me important at all whether Wilson lied. Wilson is probably not going to be sent on any more missions, so that is water under the bridge. The far more relevant question is who in the administration was responsible for ignoring the evidence (including Wilson’s) and the view of the State Dept that cast doubt upon the “big stocks of WMD” notion. Even if one still believes that the war in Iraq was a good idea, doing so on a pretext that turned out to be false severely damaged the US’s credibility abroad and our ability to recruit international support for future endeavors. So if the people responsible for that disastrous mistake are still in the White House, making bad decisions (like outing a CIA employee, for example) that is a very serious concern.

    If Valerie recommended Lyin’ Joe for the job knowing that he would, as he did, of course, allow his own political positions to lead him to distort the gathered intelligence evidence, then whether she had the power to send him to Niger isn’t that important — her recommendation obviously had some influence, and that’s enough to conclude that she acted improperly.

    Or to put it another way, if Valerie provided Wilson’s resume to her superiors, who concluded after investigation that he was a courageous, patriotic American with the competence to correctly determine whether there was an imminent threat from Iraqi nuclear weapons made from Nigerian uranium, and his experience led him to the correct conclusion that there was not–a conclusion that if heeded would have saved the nation from an embarrassing diplomatic blunder–then both she and he provided a valuable service to the nation.

    tgibbs (e9ce39)

  25. I’ll drink to that, Clam.

    And, tubino, well, I can’t argue with someone who uses the devastating “Neocon” slur. Perhaps you’re unaware of its anti-semitic connotations, but then again, who knows? The left is indeed a haven for all manner of bigots. Not suggesting you’re one, but perhaps you might reconsider the company you’re keeping. Anyway, you and Charlie have brought back pleasant memories of last year’s Gloating Day — 1 year ago today. And there’s only 375 days left until the next Gloating Day! That ought to be just after the time we see significant numbers of troops returning from Iraq, following their successful mission to put the now fledgling Iraqi representative democracy on firm ground. See ya’ then.

    TNugent (6128b4)

  26. Sorry Charlie,

    Since Valerie Plame wasn’t “a secret agent” she couldn’t be outed. And, I’m not upset at all that she was identified for recommending her husband for the Niger junket. She’s the one responsible for it. He lied and her involvement proves it. If anyone outed anyone, Joe outed Val when he wrote the Op/Ed. But, since she wasn’t undercover, he gets a pass on that one.

    Now, for starters, I do have a few questions:

    Why didn’t the CIA require Joe Wilson to sign the standard nondisclosure agreement before he went off on his junket to Niger?

    Why didn’t the CIA pay Joe Wilson for his efforts, beyond covering his expenses?

    Why wasn’t Joe Wilson required to make the normal written report of his findings?

    Why did Joe Wilson assert his wife was a covert agent when he knew full well she wasn’t?

    You will be pleased to know that these questions, and a great many others, will be put to Mr and Ms Wilson, under oath at the Libby trial. Also under oath will be quiet a few MSM reporters, as well as officials at CIA. We should learn a few things there. I don’t think Lefty Kool-Aid drinkers will find the proceedings to their taste.

    Also, in the spirit of inquiry, you may want to keep a record of your comments on this topic. In hindsight, it is possible you might come to learn quite a bit about yourself.

    And, one more thing: You should remember that Karl Rove is a pretty smart guy and I think he’s got a lot to smile about these days. I wonder how long it’s going to take you guys on the Left to feel the first hint of a cold chill on the back of the neck. Of course, by then it will be too late.

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  27. You will be pleased to know that these questions, and a great many others, will be put to Mr and Ms Wilson, under oath at the Libby trial. Also under oath will be quiet a few MSM reporters, as well as officials at CIA. We should learn a few things there. I don’t think Lefty Kool-Aid drinkers will find the proceedings to their taste.

    Probably not. Since none of that is relevant to the question of whether Scooter Libby perjured himself, it seems unlikely that the judge would admit it. If he had been charged for divulging classified information (and according to Fitzgerald, just the fact that Plame worked for the CIA was classified, never mind whether she was covert or not), then perhaps such issues might be raised.

    Maybe in Rove’s trial, if he ends up being charged…

    tgibbs (e9ce39)

  28. Hey Black Jack why dont you tell the CIA that Plame was not a secret agent? Bet they would love to hear you tell them that..None so blind….

    Charlie (8ea405)

  29. From the American Conservative:

    The possible forgery of the information by Defense Department employees would explain the viciousness of the attack on Valerie Plame and her husband. Wilson, when he denounced the forgeries in the New York Times in July 2003, turned an issue in which there was little public interest into something much bigger. The investigation continues, but the campaign against this lone detractor suggests that the administration was concerned about something far weightier than his critical op-ed.
    _____________________________________________________

    Philip Giraldi, a former CIA Officer, is a partner in Cannistraro Associates, an international security consultancy.

    http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html

    Joe (350eea)

  30. “Hey Black Jack why dont you tell the CIA that Plame was not a secret agent?”

    I don’t really think it’s necessary, but OK Charlie, I’ll do as you ask. Note to CIA, Valerie Plame was not a “secret agent” when she recommended sending her husband to Niger.

    The above information is sent at the request of Charlie. He seems to think Valerie was a “secret agent,” or he pretends to think so, in spite of evidence to the contrary. He asked me to let you guy know what I think, otherwise I wouldn’t waste your time. Respectfully,

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  31. Curse this man Wilson for his treachery against this Cheney with whom I am brothers. I will impale 50 men to curse him and he will not share in the pig’s blood with myself and this Cheney my brother.

    Vlad Ţepeş (5c9b64)

  32. On the topic of Valerie Plame’s “secret agent” status, Victoria Toensing has a few observations in today’s WSJ Opinion Journal (free link) Ms. Toensing, a Washington lawyer, is a former chief counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee and former deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration.

    Following is one of her observations:

    • The CIA sent her husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson, to Niger on a sensitive mission regarding WMD. He was to determine whether Iraq had attempted to purchase yellowcake, an essential ingredient for unconventional weapons. However, it was Ms. Plame, not Mr. Wilson, who was the WMD expert. Moreover, Mr. Wilson had no intelligence background, was never a senior person in Niger when he was in the State Department, and was opposed to the administration’s Iraq policy. The assignment was given, according to the Senate Intelligence Committee, at Ms. Plame’s suggestion.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007508

    It’s a good read and not too long. Well worth the time.

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  33. Black Jack:

    exactly right. indeed, the Toensing article, and the article by Zell Miller here….

    http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/1105/02edmiller.html?COXnetJSessionIDbuild102=DpICsoeXn1GNFXprsEA1AZ9UiQg63kGGuelt0fndf1mfmO3I9OBY!64096873&UrAuth=aN%60NUOcNVUbTTUWUXUTUZTZU_UWUbU%5DUZUaU_UcTYWVVZV&urcm=y

    …make something clear (which the MSM, as usual, is utterly ignoring): Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson used his junket to Niger as an (admitedly clever) way to stab a dagger at the Bush Admininistration – with whom lefty ’60’s liberal Joe Wilson has admitted he disagrees.

    As Zell Miller points out, what this sad episode really shows is that Congress needs to make sure (with legislation) that the CIA applies the same rules to CIA family members (including house husbands lounging in Bethesda) as it does to its own employees.

    No CIA employee (or any other person, in normal circumstances) would’ve been permitted by Langley to:

    (a) go to Niger in the first place without expertise on the subject matter (i.e., purchase and sale of uranium; WMD generally),

    (b) undertake the mission without signing ANY confidentiality agreement,

    (c) upon returning, begin blabbing about the trip in the press without any agency oversight or clearance,

    (d) get the gig in the first place via nepotism – so that it wasn’t shot-down from the get-go for reasons (a) and (b) above … and didn’t result in item (c) above.

    Also, in it’s legislation, Congress would need to make clear (if it isn’t already) that, if such a dagger aimed at an Administration by the permanent lefties at Langley, as was thrust by Plame and her house husband in this case, then the Adminsitration must, under the 1st Amendment and based on sheer public policy grounds, be able to inform the public of the scheme hatched at Langley – so the public can fairly judge the messenger (i.e., Joe Wilson).

    This situation – in which a cabal of career lefties at CIA can go to these transparent lengths to undermine a Republican Administraton – is what should truly give us all pause. We didn’t elect Valerie Plame or Joe Wilson. Since when do they think they have the authority to run our foreign policy?

    And why can’t the leadership at Langley punich these transgressions (a-d above) by firing Plame.

    Any why can’t Joes Wilson be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

    Why the GOP goes to these political fights with gloves on – when the left goes bare-fisted, and with knives and guns – is a mystery to me. Does anyone doubt – if this little stunt had been pulled by CIA career-types on Bill Clinton – that the lot of them at the CIA would’ve been canned a la the White House travel office?

    demosthenes (5ba388)

  34. Joe Wilson admitted on TV that Plame was not undercover at the time that her name came out in the Novak column. this is just one of the left’s many red herrings in this story.

    the fact that Fitzgerald found no criminal violation of the CIA identities act would normally silence rational criticism on this subject. alas, we are dealing with the Left…

    rove was not indicted of any crime, but he should resign!! … and the cow jumped over the moon … blah, blah, blah, send us money!! blah, blah, blah…

    the left has no affirmative ideas of their own. therefore their only public policy “debate” option is to sue Republicans. and the MSM goes giddy with each new suit! how convenient!

    demosthenes (5ba388)

  35. Black jack you really ought to give your information to the CIA. They are the ones that demanded and investigation on the basis that one of their agents was outed and Bush himself along with Rove and others have NEVER disputed this. If this was really the case they could have saved Libby a lot of trouble..

    BlackJack and Demostenes..( what a bastarization of a name that is!!! seeking truth..ha ha!!) I challenge either one of you to explain to me why Bush and Cheney and Rove and others have never denied any wrong doing regarding leaking the identity of Plame on the basis of the fact that she was not a secret agent? Remind me to nail down my computer so the spin doesnt sent it flying off into orbit!!

    You really would be happy in a banana republic where they support the leader no matter what.. party and leader first ..screw the citizens!!
    Well dont worry my friend, you may get your wish very soon..sad to say.

    And Demostenes..in your smear of Wilson as a 60s liberal you forget to mention how Bush Sr relied upon him and praised his work…just an oversight on your part I am sure… ( ya!!!)

    Dont let the facts get in your way gentlemen!!

    Making up false information is so much easier!! along with your obvious sense of feeling sorry for yourselves that so many people around the world and here at home are finally turning against those who take the name of Republicans and Conservatives but in reality are neither.. Does the word fascist seem to fit??

    Charlie (8ea405)

  36. So, Charlie, anyone who doesn’t swallow your line of horse manure is a facist. Well, if that’s all you got, name calling and bogus arguements, then talk to yourself. I just don’t have time for you anymore.

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  37. If there’s still anyone who hasn’t got the word on Joe Wilson’s part in the Plame Game yet, Jed Babbin has an article in the American Spectator which directly addresses CIA involvement. We need an honest and open investigation. The following quote is typical, and telling.

    “The whole Wilson/Plame affair stinks to high heaven. And the smell is coming from Langley. Porter Goss should receive credit for working hard to fix the CIA. The Wilson affair isn’t his problem, it’s ours. Right now, the CIA’s disinformation campaign has cost Scooter Libby his future, threatens other White House staffers and — most importantly — burdens the credibility of the president in time of war. It affects our standing in the world, our relationship with our allies, and our strength in the eyes of our enemies. In short, this damned thing needs to be unraveled, publicly, and right bloody now.” Click here: The American Spectator

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  38. Black Jack.. I made a challenge to you and so far you have not taken me up on it…And now you tell us the CIA is also involved in this attack on Bush..ha ha ha!! The last thing you want is an open and honest investigation…Bush and crew might be arrested if there was one…

    Charlie (8ea405)

  39. One more thing gents.. Where are the WMDs? Remember Bush doing a skit about looking for WMds? What’s you spin on that???

    Charlie (8ea405)

  40. One more thing gents… – Charlie

    There are ladies here too Charlie. Or at least there were, before the advent of the Miers nomination…

    Tillman (1cf529)

  41. Hey Tillman Isnt it incredible that these guys make up stuff even Bush, Cheney and Rove wont say in their own defense..like Plame was not a secret agent!!? Now in addition to the media, the French, the liberals, dozens of ex Bush Sr officials we now add a “cabal of career lefties in the the CIA” to the list of those out to get our beloved President!

    I have had enough wasting my time talking to people who care more about defending Bush than in doing what is best for this country… they can deny it all they want but that is the truth

    Charlie (8ea405)

  42. Yes Charlie, you have to hand it to them. Republicans are the masters when if comes to the politics of personal destruction.

    I’m disappointed, however, that Wilson didn’t practice CYA and provide a written report when he came back from Niger. Since he just talked to them, it becomes a “he said/they said” situation that the republicans can capitalize on. Wilson had worked in Washington long enough to know better.

    So we don’t really know what was said for sure, but that doesn’t stop the right from smearing Wilson anyway.

    Tillman (1cf529)

  43. Hey Tillman Isnt it incredible that these guys make up stuff even Bush, Cheney and Rove wont say in their own defense..like Plame was not a secret agent!!?

    Since when were Bush and Cheney accused of outing Plame? For that matter why should Rove discuss a legal matter publicly? You’ve got to stop those bong hits before you write something.

    Gerald A (fe1f90)

  44. Gerald A,

    You offer good advice, but don’t wait up nights for positive results, not here anyway. The deliberately obtuse oafishly decline to allow common sense to intrude into their farcical illusions. They can’t let it go, and slavishly adhere to Wilson’s malarkey.

    Valerie Plame simply wasn’t a covert operative. Joe Wilson’s pack of lies depends exclusively on that fiction. The MSM has pushed Wilson’s lies so hard and so often, there’s no way to retreat without exposing themselves. Like Dan Rather and Mary Mapes, they will never face up to the fact of their own complicity.

    But, the truth is already out, and it won’t be much longer before the whole phony foundation gives way. More and more cracks appear daily.

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/9/115114.shtml

    Wilson’s house of cards is going to come crashing down, and soon.

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)

  45. Gerald your remarks are quite interesting…Let me try to explain something to you. This entire administration is under attack because of the CIA charge that a secret agent was outed. My question is if she was not a secret agent then why have so many of them denied leaking her name when questioned about this matter? Would it not be better to simply say no crime was committed because she was not a secret agent? They have never said that only right wing diehards make that charge. Doesnt that tell you something. Cant you understand that simple question? Cant understand or dont want to understand? I think I know

    And Black Jack any house of cards coming down is Bush for his blatent lies and halftruths about this war. Not that you would ever hold him responsible.. Understand one thing Black Jack there have been NO WMDs or means to produce them found in Iraq..Wilson was right..Bush was wrong. Apparently you cant answer that so you just resort to this attack on Wilson. Truth hurts doesnt it?

    Charlie (8ea405)

  46. Hey Patternico how about a discussion of whether or not Bush should agree not to pardon anyone convicted in this episode the way his father did at the end of his term? I think that would be a good idea but of course that would make it likely that Libby and others might talk..sure wouldnt want that, now would we??

    Charlie (8ea405)

  47. They have never said that only right wing diehards make that charge. Doesnt that tell you something. Cant you understand that simple question?

    I do understand that simple question coming from your simple mind. And my answer is, that is a LEGAL MATTER whether or not she was a secret agent. It’s not the place of anyone in the administration to comment publicly on that. Certainly not Bush or Cheney. I doubt it would be ethical and maybe not legal. At best it would be INAPPROPRIATE AND POINTLESS TO DO SO. THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN TRYING TO DEFEND AGAINST CONSPIRACY CHARGES FROM LEFTIST LOONIES, AS DIFFICULT AS THAT MAY BE FOR YOU TO GRASP.

    It’s for FITZGERALD’s investigation to determine. The fact he hasn’t charged anyone with outing an agent would seem to settle the matter to a normal person.

    there have been NO WMDs or means to produce them found in Iraq..Wilson was right..Bush was wrong.

    Wilson never made a report on WMD’s in Iraq. Stop hallucating. There were numerous dual use facilities and tons of chemicals which could be converted into nerve gas. They also discovered tons of yellowcake IN IRAQ, which is not surprising since it’s known Iraq purchased tons of it in the 90’s.

    Gerald A (fe1f90)

  48. Gerald you just dont get it, do you? If Plame was not a secret agent then why….oh forget it…keep up the spin..I am not going to try showing you that black is really black when you insist its white..

    Charlie (8ea405)

  49. If Plame was not a secret agent then why…

    Then why don’t they say that? I just explained that. I’ll summarize again anyway.

    1) Because there’s no reason to say that. Trying to convince dingbats that there was not a Bush/Cheney ordered plot to out Plame is not a reason anyone in the administration would be concerned with. There is no one sitting around every day thinking about how to convince dingbats that something that never happened never happened.

    2) Even if they were concerned with dingbats, which they are not, it would be highly innapropriate to make public remarks about what somebody’s covert status is, especially while there are still legal proceedings going on, but even after they’re over with it seems it would be innapropriate. If anyone in the administration did that they would probably receive all sorts of attacks from the Dems and you would probably join in. It might be the type of thing the Clinton administration would do however.

    Your “reasoning” that they would want everyone to know she was not covert proceeds from the belief that an order from Bush/Cheney to out Plame is a fact. You then reason that since they had this plot going on, they would want people to know that they didn’t break the law. However, there’s no factual basis for your belief, it’s just the typical leftie inability to differentiate between facts and their own assumptions, which are endlessly repeated, reinforcing in their deluded minds that it is a fact. Everything then proceeds from that assumption. Which conservatives just don’t “get”.

    Gerald A (dd601b)

  50. Gerald, then why is Bush ordering his staff to go to ethics classes about handling classified material? http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/05/bush.ethics/

    Tillman (1cf529)

  51. Hey Tilman did you see where Karl Rove was caught cheating in one of the ethtics classes??? ha ha!
    Check this out….

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist told reporters Thursday that while he believed illegal activity should not take place at detention centers, he believes the leak itself poses a greater threat to national security and is “not concerned about what goes on” behind the prison walls.

    “My concern is with leaks of information that jeopardize your safety and security — period,” Frist said. “That is a legitimate concern.”

    I wonder if he is as concerned about the leaking of Plames name as he is about this leak.. Oh thats right I forgot Valorie Plames name was in the Yellow Pages under Secret Agents, so she wasnt really secret.. I forgot that

    Charlie (8ea405)

  52. Gerald you say, referring to me, when I asked why if Plame was not secret, why they dont just say that…you say to me..

    Your “reasoning” that they would want everyone to know she was not covert proceeds from the belief that an order from Bush/Cheney to out Plame is a fact.

    TOTALLY INCORRECT GERALD…My reasoning that they would want everyone to know she was not covert proceeds from the belief that if no crime was committed then they should say so. How radical is that?
    Your final paragraph in post 49 is really amazing.

    You essentially say that if someone charges you with stealing a precious jewel and starts an investigation then you should not point out that the jewel was actually yours… since the person charging you obviously thinks it wasnt…
    I see now why you support Bush…

    Charlie (8ea405)

  53. At first I thought you were joking about Rove cheating Charlie, but then I saw this: http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/8079/1/294 . If this pans out to be true, doesn’t that just beat all? Cheating in an ethics class…good Lord.

    Tillman (1cf529)

  54. Mr Patterico..Sir..
    I want to send a private message to you..can you tell me how I can do that?
    Also how do I make words italicized??
    Thanks

    Charlie (8ea405)

  55. Charlie, For Patterico’s email address, see
    https://patterico.com/2005/10/19/3804/random-blog-related-issues/

    For italics, . To turn them off . (Strip out the “then” and you’ll have it.

    Tillman (1cf529)

  56. Well, the italics instructions worked in the preview. But not live.
    See this site for instructions: http://www.pageresource.com/html/textags.htm

    Tillman (1cf529)

  57. Tillman I wanted to have Pat ask you if we can exchange emails.. I would like your address. I mean that way us two anti american subversives could cooridinate our nefarious strategy to undermine Western Civilization. Since you have a knack for this internet stuff how about you doing it?

    I could post mine but you know what would happen…

    Charlie (8ea405)

  58. All right. Partners in crime.
    You can use my hotmail address, then I’ll send you my normal address. It is mtillmancmac[ at ]hotmail[ dot ]com.

    Tillman (1cf529)

  59. Debunking the Deranged Left,

    From Brit Hume’s Political Grapevine last night:

    “… liberal Websites say they have proof Vallely is lying, saying research service LexisNexis shows Vallely and Wilson never appeared on FOX on the same day.

    But in fact, Vallely and Wilson appeared on the same day nine times in 2002, and on the same show twice — on September 8 and September 12, when both men appeared within 15 minutes of one another…”

    Black Jack (ee9fe2)


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