Patterico's Pontifications

9/1/2005

A Clueless President?

Filed under: Current Events,General,Politics — Patterico @ 9:21 pm



Can you believe it? The President didn’t foresee the levees breaking!

(President Clinton, that is.)

Leftists throughout the blogosphere have been mocking Bush for saying that the breach of the levees in New Orleans was something people weren’t expecting. (I have to say I was surprised myself by Bush’s statement; the potential breach of the levees is something that had been discussed for some time, in particular during the run-up to Katrina.) Let’s see if they make fun of former President Bill Clinton for saying the same thing.

From an interview by CNN’s Suzanne Malveaux of former presidents G.H.W. Bush and President Clinton:

G.H.W. BUSH: Let me — I just to want finish. I believe the administration is doing the right thing, and I believe they have acted in a timely fashion. And I understand people being critical. That happens all the time. And I understand some people wanted to make, you know, a little difficulty by criticizing the president and the team. But I don’t want to sit here and not defend the administration which, in my view, has taken all the right steps. And they’re facing problems that nobody could foresee: breaking of the levees and the whole dome thing over in New Orleans coming apart. People couldn’t foresee that.

CLINTON: Yes, I think that’s important to point out. Because when you say that they should have done this, that or the other thing first, you can look at that problem in isolation, and you can say that.

But look at all the other things they had to deal with. I’m telling you, nobody thought this was going to happen like this. But what happened here is they escaped — New Orleans escaped Katrina. But it brought all the water up the Mississippi River and all in the Pontchartrain, and then when it started running and that levee broke, they had problems they never could have foreseen.

Is Clinton just rising above the fray of partisan politics? I suppose that’s what our friends on the left would say. But I don’t think he’d be saying this unless he honestly believed it. Seems a little strange, all right, but I think he’s being sincere.

(Clinton interview via Captain Ed.)

UPDATE: Ed also highlights evidence that the break in the levee occurred in a section that had been recently upgraded.

UPDATE x2: Michelle Malkin has much more.

43 Responses to “A Clueless President?”

  1. I understand that clinton might be out of the loop — I only heard about these dangers by chance a few years ago on NPR. But I don’t understand the president being out of the loop. Was the president really not briefed on what we knew the dangers to new orleans were in general, and what danger this particular storm posed?

    actus (518762)

  2. Ah yeah, the good ol’ lefties. Speaking of which, they’re blaming Bush for the hurricane.

    Nick @ HBR (731b94)

  3. The mayor and Governor are both on record before Katrina hit (as well as the Army Corps of Engineers) predicting that the levees would break.

    If Bush doesn’t know (or Clinton) then he should resign as he is hopelessly incompetent. My guess is that Clinton is not this stupid, dishonest perhaps, but not that willfully ignorant.

    So put me on record. Both men have a well established pattern of faults in these two different areas (thus the phrase “Clintonian”). Also, note how remeniscent the photo of Bush looking out the window of AF1 was to 9/11. It is no longer a heroic or compassionate picture–it is tragic.

    We don’t need anymore tragedy where we can prevent it. We need a competent and proactive executive–one that does not think like a politician hamstrung by a lone protestor, but rather as the leader of the most powerful nation this planet has yet seen. This is too much power for an irresponsible incompetent to be entrusted.

    Paul Deignan (664c74)

  4. And I tell you: Yes, someone thought this will happen. And it was not joe average.
    As for GWB, he cut the funds for security measures against flooding by 44% last year. The iraq war hasn’t anything to do with this, because he also could have chosen other areas to save money.
    Well, for the record: The president has his specialists for anything he has to care about. If they fail, he fails too. If he listens to the wrong advices, he is wrong to. It’s okay to blame him. He chose his advisors. Big mistake. Find another, with better advisors.

    Sebastian (3a0c49)

  5. Sebastian,

    You make some good points, but regarding funding for the levees, three things. First, the levees have historically been underfunded, so we could go back all the way to Nixon if we felt so inclined to place blame on the President. Second, the levees are really a responsibility for Louisiana, not an interstate (and, therefore, federal) issue. Third, the section that failed, according to the New York Times, was recently upgraded, meaning even if the whole works had been upgraded, this would have happened.

    From the article:

    No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls.

    Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was “along a section that was just upgraded.”

    “It did not have an earthen levee,” Dr. Penland said. “It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/national/nationalspecial/01levee.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1125634216-vUW1sfEFwPQmSTQc8nzEbw

    Clint (b5fddd)

  6. ” Second, the levees are really a responsibility for Louisiana, not an interstate (and, therefore, federal) issue.”

    Why does the army corps of engineers work on them then?

    actus (518762)

  7. actus,

    Each levee has its own governing board. Hell, its a political payoff bonanza. The Army Corps of Engineers works on all intercoastal waterways, including the local lakes here in Missouri. Michelle has all the scoop on the levee funding. Seems to me there is something in there about matching state funds that never came about.

    Paul,
    Can you cite where both the Mayor and Governor said, prior to the hurricane, that the levees would fail. Because if you can and there was not a mandatory evacuation, of ALL of NO, they are both culpable. IF they knew that this situation was going to happen and they didn’t forcibly get those people out of there, then THEY are the ones responsible for this situation.

    rls (0516f0)

  8. Here is the Blanco quote: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/?section=cnn_topstories

    Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that New Orleans could expect a complete loss of electricity and water services as well as intense flooding.

    There is also a link to a video witin that link to Nagin’s evacuation order. you have to wait towards the end, but he explicitly states that the levee system is expected to be “toppled”.

    Paul Deignan (9e57a7)

  9. rls,

    Its been known for a while that these levees were for a cat 3 storm. Now, whether they would topple or just be overrun and we would get the bowl situation I don’t know. I would imagine that the sorts of storms that would overrun the entire system would also cause at least some gaps in it.

    actus (518762)

  10. BTW, A hurricane is a national defense event that conserns the federal government (thus we have fema).

    The President has authority when it is clear that local authorities are unable to handle the situation (which was self-evident–they had no evacuation plan for those w/o vehicles).

    Two recognized exceptions derive from the President’s inherent right to preserve public order and to carry out government operations. In an emergency situation that requires prompt and vigorous action to prevent loss of life, or warrants destruction of property when sudden and unexpected disasters disrupt normal governmental functions such that duly constituted local authorities are unable to control the situation, the President may use the military to prevent loss of life, to prevent wanton destruction of property, and to restore governmental functions and public order.63 The Office of Legal Counsel of the Department of Justice has recognized the U.S. government’s power to protect federal functions.64 Second, the President may use the military “to protect Federal property and Federal governmental operations when . . . local authorities are unable or decline to provide adequate protection.”

    from EXTRAORDINARY PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY

    Paul Deignan (9e57a7)

  11. Paul – Please list all the pro-active measures that need to be taken so there’s never a preventable tragedy, along with the solutions, costs of implementation, funding sources, etc., so that immediate action can be taken. The items should belisted in order of priority.

    Thanks from a grateful nation.

    eddie haskell (8fd1a1)

  12. Following eddie’s logic, government should do nothing. Anything that happens to us is an occasion for throwing our hands up and gnashing our teeth.

    Eddie doesn’t see a purpose in government and probably sees little need for any community other than the community of self-interest.

    All problems are too great for eddie so he satisfies himself in carping on the internet under an assumed name.

    I got a new name for you eddie. You are now “eddius”, the chief eunuch of Emperor Nero.

    Here’s your fiddle.

    Paul Deignan (9e57a7)

  13. Paul – Gee, Paul, I asked you to help the government fulfill its purpose and avoid “doing nothing” by listing action items to prevent future tragedies. Why are you so upset?

    eddie haskell (8fd1a1)

  14. Eddius,

    Eunuchs should not play the fool. The Fool’s union could file a complaint.

    Paul Deignan (9e57a7)

  15. “Paul – Please list all the pro-active measures that need to be taken so there’s never a preventable tragedy, along with the solutions, costs of implementation, funding sources, etc., so that immediate action can be taken. The items should belisted in order of priority.”

    I agree eddie, that for you, the best defense is a good offense. Its really all you got.

    actus (518762)

  16. Paul – Apparently you have have nothing to offer beyond some after the fact finger pointing and name calling. No wonder actus likes you.

    eddie haskell (8fd1a1)

  17. I’m not an attorney and I’m not 100% sure, but in order for the CIC to mobilize the active duty military in a civilian capacity, does he not have to declare Martial Law? I understand the post about protecting Federal Property, I just don’t know about non-military property.

    Bush declared Mississippi and Louisiana disaster areas before Katrina landed. If I’m the Prez, I would have asked the Gov’s of the two states if they had what they needed and if they were prepared. If they said “yes”, I think I would be satisfied. I would like to know what the conversations were like.

    I didn’t see anything about the levees failing in the link you provided. What I did see was statements that a wave surge would go over the levees, by as much as 12 feet, if Katrina maintained her Cat 5 status. I also noted that the Mayor told the people being bussed to the Superdome to be prepared to be highly uncomfortable for 1 1/2 to 3 days. Apparantly, the Mayor of NO, who should have knowledge of such things, did not think that the levee would breach.

    Appears to me that, until we do some forensic work in the next week or so, we should forebear laying blame or responsibility for what is now going on in those two states.

    rls (0516f0)

  18. Sometimes even the President needs a boot in the ass. This is a democracy after all.

    It’s not directionless blame to tell him he needs put the military to good use. He has the authority. He needs to use it.

    He also needs to exercise strong leadership in directing a large bureaucracy that is waiting on his orders.

    We don’t have the time for niceities when people are trapped in attics dying in the heat.

    Paul Deignan (664c74)

  19. Vitter has the right idea. He deserves our support.

    Paul Deignan (664c74)

  20. BTW, for the truly clueless:

    If there are 10,000 people waiting on an interstate to be evacuated, you don’t wait 2 days before considering whether or not to tell the troops in Ft. Hood, Ft. Stewart, Ft. Benning, Ft. Gordon, and Ft. Polk to “saddle up”.

    You get the movement started as you continue planning. You don’t sit on your ass and wait for a commitee to issue a advisory report.

    Paul Deignan (664c74)

  21. “I didn’t see anything about the levees failing in the link you provided. What I did see was statements that a wave surge would go over the levees, by as much as 12 feet, if Katrina maintained her Cat 5 status”

    Don’t be an idiot. A levee that does not hold the water at bay has failed. also, they don’t usually survive being overrun.

    actus (518762)

  22. Much as I hate to see it, Bush has been surprisingly tone-deaf on this issue, almost aloof. He had an opportunity to rally America and unite us, as he did after 9/11. To say he’s squandered it would be an understatement. His political capital is rapidly draining into the muck of New Orleans. The Bush Presidency is badly damaged.

    (yes, lots of others in Louisiana deserve to be shot for their incompetence, but the buck stops on Bush’s desk and he flubbed it.)

    Kevin Murphy (6a7945)

  23. Much as I hate to see it, Bush has been surprisingly tone-deaf on this issue, almost aloof. He had an opportunity to rally America and unite us, as he did after 9/11. To say he’s squandered it would be an understatement. His political capital is rapidly draining into the muck of New Orleans. The Bush Presidency is badly damaged.

    I don’t disagree.

    Patterico (bfcb98)

  24. 1 : topple –> fall down, as if collapsing; “The tower of the World Trade Center tumbled after the plane hit it” (verb.motion)
    Synonyms: tumble, topple
    hypernym: descend fall go down come down
    hyponym: keel over
    frames: ‘tumble’ in {noun: spill, tumble, fall}
    2 : topple –> cause to topple or tumble by pushing (verb.motion)
    Synonyms: topple, tumble, tip
    hypernym: push force
    frames: ‘tumble’ in {noun: spill, tumble, fall}

    (for the additional benefit or rls)

    Paul Deignan (664c74)

  25. Obviously I disagree with Paul and actus about the responsibility (blame?) re the rescue efforts in NO. Where the hell was the City’s plan for this catastrophe? What plan was laid out for rescue and essential services in case of a flood, in a city 20 feet below sea level?

    Why weren’t the emergency vehicles (ambulances, fire trucks and police cars) moved to high ground so they would be available after the storm?

    Why didn’t the city provide transportation to the people that had no transportation out of the flood area? Why was there not a mandatory evacuation? Evacuating those people to where the Red Cross has relief centers set up – room enough for 70,000 evacuees.

    I ask these questions in light of both the Gov’s & the Mayor’s prior knowledge, which you both acknowledge, that there would be a flood. That the levee would “fail”.

    There was no plan in place for first responders (local personnel) to do any search and rescue work. There was no emergency vehicles available for first responders. First responders are the local people on the scene doing triage work. They determine where to allocate resources.

    What was the Mayor thinking on Tuesday when, in a news conference, he said, (I paraphrase) We have everything under control.

    If you think the President should have declared Martial Law on Monday? Tuesday? or maybe before Katrina hit, I disagree. It takes time and planning to move massive amounts of food, water and manpower to an area that has no infrastructure. No highways into the city for heavy trucks and no airport to land cargo planes.

    I do not think that the Feds are completely absolved of responsibility after Tuesday, this being Friday. However it is the responsibility of the local government to prepare first responders and have a plan in place. If I’m the Prez and the local Mayor tells me that he has everything under control, I’m going to believe him. Now when he comes back the next day and cries for help, then I react.

    rls (0516f0)

  26. RE #24 and #8:

    Although I have not reviewed the specific video in question, I suspect that this is an error on the part of the speaker. Most of the coverage I saw indicated that they expected the levee system to be “topped”, not “toppled”. When a levee is “topped”, it means that water from a flood (or in this case, a storm surge) flows over the top. It normally weakens the levee such that repairs are required, but it does not necessarily cause a breach in the levee.

    Mike Dubost (93c781)

  27. “Why didn’t the city provide transportation to the people that had no transportation out of the flood area? Why was there not a mandatory evacuation? ”

    Cuba does it. Can we?

    actus (ebc508)

  28. Mike,

    In the two minutes it took for you to post a statement of known ignorance, you could have reviewed the video in question in which it is clear that the word is “toppled“.

    Thanks for reinforcing the need for us to sort out this situation immediately. We wouldn’t want to forget how this situation was bollixed up and who did the bollixing.

    Paul Deignan (664c74)

  29. actus,

    Let’s see if I can somehow wrap my brain around your logic. You seem to think that we should have sent in Federal Troops (Martial Law) within hours of the flooding to rescue people who would not leave when a mandatory evacuation order was received. Is that right? Yet you see it as totalitarian to insist that all people in a potential flood area leave, as part of comprehensive evacuation plan? I’m sure that a large majority of those people would have left if transportation was provided. You know, all those buses under water.

    I notice that you did not address the woeful inadequacy of the City’s planning. Just sort of missed that part of it, eh?

    You might go to the City of NO web sight and check out who, by charter, is responsible for Emergency Prepardness. You might be surprised that it is not Bush.

    rls (0516f0)

  30. “You seem to think that we should have sent in Federal Troops (Martial Law) within hours of the flooding to rescue people who would not leave when a mandatory evacuation order was received.”

    Seem from what? And is there a citation to this martial law that people keep on talking about?

    “. Is that right? Yet you see it as totalitarian to insist that all people in a potential flood area leave, as part of comprehensive evacuation plan? ”

    Totalitarian? Its also organized. I mean, you want mandatory evacuation, you got a mandatory evacuation, at the barrel of a gun.

    “I notice that you did not address the woeful inadequacy of the City’s planning. ”

    There’s a lot I didn’t address. I didn’t address levee funding. I didn’t address poverty.

    actus (518762)

  31. Glad to see that when given facts, you create a strawman. That tells me all I need to know. Have a good day.

    Don’t let the facts get in the way of your ideological bent.

    rls (0516f0)

  32. This was brought to my attention http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00060286-CB58-1315-8B5883414B7F0000

    An October 2001 issue , Scientific American on “Drowning New Orleans” :

    * A major hurricane could swamp New Orleans under 20 feet of water, killing thousands. Human activities along the Mississippi River have dramatically increased the risk, and now only massive reengineering of southeastern Louisiana can save the city

    * By Mark Fischetti

    A year from now another 25 to 30 square miles of delta marsh–an area the size of Manhattan–will have vanished. An acre disappears every 24 minutes.

    Yi Ling (8abe82)

  33. The postal system is at fault! They knew that Katrina (the black caucus wanted more black names for hurricanes)was coming and should have delivered the welfare checks earlier. I say it’s Bush’s (not President Bush’s) fault. He should have been swimming to the mailboxes with the checks. No wait, they can’t cash them, he should have been swimming to the mailboxes with greenbacks. What a farce the MSM and the Mayor and Governor of Louisiana has become! I say “you people in charge, get your ASS into the swamps and help your own people out!!

    SAVET (67b22e)

  34. On SUNDAY MORNING Bush had to beg Gov. Blanco to make the evacuation mandatory.

    Even then, Mayor Nagin “exempted hotels from the evacuation because airlines had cancelled flights.” Maybe that’s why today he diverted buses from the Superdome to the hotels.

    Of course, if the Governor or the Mayor had cared about all the poor they knew so well who couldn’t afford transport out, they could have made use of these hundreds of school buses plus another 364 at the New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority.

    Even Jabbar Gibson knew enough to do that. But he’ll probably get arrested for committing a felony.

    As Bill Hobbs says, “If each bus could hold just 60 people, NORTA’s 364 buses had the capacity to take almost 22,000 peope out of harm’s way per trip. Given that Nagin ordered the compulsory evacuation of the city two days before the storm hit, there was sufficient time for more than one trip – sufficient time to move tens of thousands of the city’s poorest residents out of New Orleans by bus before Katrina arrived. Even if the buses only made one trip, one in five people now trapped in New Orleans wouldn’t be. But Nagin never sent NORTA’s buses and drivers into the city’s Ninth Ward, its poorest section, to offer the people there a realistic way out. Critics will ask where, exactly, the NORTA buses would have taken tens of thousands of people. My answer: the first town they came to 100 miles or so west of New Orleans. Would that be ideal? No, but leaving 100,000 poor people trapped in a below-sea-level city about to be hit by a hurricane stronger than the city’s levees were build to withstand wasn’t exactly ideal, either. Nagin is screaming for buses now, but when he had them he failed to use them. People aren’t dying in New Orleans today because of what the federal relief effort is or isn’t doing. People are dying in New Orleans today because Mayor Ray Nagin failed to get them out before Katrina hit.”

    Clyde (397ae3)

  35. “Glad to see that when given facts, you create a strawman”

    Who’s the strawman? The busses that weren’t used? The Cubans that are better at this than us, who are more totalitarian and more organized?

    actus (518762)

  36. Paul, your disingineousness is striking. On a video toppled vs. topped? And that’s your evidence Pshaw, your evidence is nothing. Levee terms are topped, breached, or broken. Find me a written story that refers to toppled with the levees and I’ll be impressed. But I doubt you’ll be so able. Levees don’t topple. That’s just dumb, their not a building they tend to be an earthen mass. If anything they erode away. That’s a big difference.

    Don’t be such a hack.

    Joel B. (568776)

  37. JoelB,

    Rls asked for a citation for something he should have known by just keeping up with the news. I provided a good one–nothing sneeky pete about that. Of course, even in the world of wild obfuscation, “intense flooding” means “intense flooding”.

    Why is the simple truth so difficult for some to understand? Why do innocent people have to die because some would rather avoid the truth rather than deal with reality? I’m not on this planet to appease your ego. Life has more meaning for me than that.

    Oh, and BTW, how do you think your post reads to the impartial observer? Does it make you seem helpful, constructive, interested, open-minded, concerned, trustworthy, interesting?

    When someone sees the video and then sees what you have written, what will they think about “Joel B”?

    I put my name behind my posts because I am willing to stake my reputation on them. And you?

    Paul Deignan (9e57a7)

  38. “Levee terms are topped, breached, or broken. Find me a written story that refers to toppled with the levees and I’ll be impressed”

    When levees are overrun, specially the ones with a high wall on a mound of dirt, its expected that they break. The water that comes over the wall causes erosion on the dry side, which causes the levee to collapse.

    You’re not seriously arguing this point are you?

    actus (518762)

  39. Oh, and BTW, how do you think your post reads to the impartial observer? Does it make you seem helpful, constructive, interested, open-minded, concerned, trustworthy, interesting?

    In this particular topic, I mainly just want to try to correct the misleading portrayals of excessive partisans who are laying blame on this situation on people to whom it does not belong.

    Why is the simple truth so difficult for some to understand?

    Because there is a substantial portion of the population that obfuscates with words and misleads, creates false misimpressions and does so maliciously. If I seem unusually voiciferous it is so, because in this instance people are attempting to unjustly undermine faith in the federal government, for their own partisan ends.

    While intense flooding does mean intense flooding, that was not your initial point, it was to show that levee breaks were expected, that point was the one I was complaining of.

    People expected intense flooding, they did not expect NO to become part of Lake Ponchartrain, which is effectively what happened.

    When levees are overrun, specially the ones with a high wall on a mound of dirt, its expected that they break. The water that comes over the wall causes erosion on the dry side, which causes the levee to collapse.

    You’re not seriously arguing this point are you?

    I’ve lived near the Delta for most of my life, I’m somewhat familiar with levee systems, and I know that water rushing over the levee is a very bad thing, precisely because it so greatly increases the risk of a breach. But, it can also depend on the levees, from my understanding one of the largest levee breaks was in a concrete not earthen levee. Not that a concrete levee won’t erode away when, but it is substantially less likely than when the topped levee is an earthen one. So, I’m not arguing the general point. But the specific one, it’s very possible given the specific levee system, they did not expect a breach when topped. But you know, no levees are ever any different.

    Also, does it really matter, it’s very possible that the ACE figured that if a cat 4 or 5 hurricane came over NO it wouldn’t really matter much anyways. At some point, you’re just screwed.

    Along the same lines, if there’s ever a big one that knocks the west half of California in the ocean, I will see to it, that I might think twice about assigning …blame… to someone…it’s just a waste of time. What they only built the bay bridge to withstand a 9.2, sure there will be criping after the 9.3 hits, but everyone is already griping that this new bridge is already wasting some $6 Billion dollars and tolls are going up to $4. Some events are really too big too defend against reasonably. Otherwise, we’d all drive around in Hummers. Seriously, if S.F. submerges into the ocean is anyone really going to care if the bridge is still there?

    Joel B. (568776)

  40. “. But, it can also depend on the levees, from my understanding one of the largest levee breaks was in a concrete not earthen levee. Not that a concrete levee won’t erode away when, but it is substantially less likely than when the topped levee is an earthen one. ”

    It was concrete on a mound of dirt. The mound eroded, the concrete fell.

    actus (518762)

  41. Errr, aaahh, the concrete wall was “toppled”.

    Paul Deignan (9e57a7)

  42. Paul, it was not my intention to disupte the use of the word “toppled” in the video, but rather its applicablity to the situation. Since others have now done so with more clarity than I managed, I clearly see that I should have phrased it differently.

    Mike Dubost (fb6ec3)

  43. […] Levee and flood control projects are long-term and time-consuming in normal times. Even five years are often insufficient for all of the planning and environmental studies (not to mention lawsuits over the environmental studies) for projects of this type — nevermind the actual construction work. So, maybe we ought to take a glance back at the previous administration’s attitude toward these types of projects. Thankfully EU ROTA has compiled quite a few stories from the Clinton administration demonstrating similar “devastating cuts” to the Army Corps of Engineers’ budget for levee and flood control projects for New Orleans. In fairness, while there have been several tormer Clinton administration officials eager to blame President Bush (most notably Sid “Vicious” Blumenthal), President Clinton himself has been much more honest and refrained from crass politicization of the tragedy. […]

    Hoystory » Blog Archive » The blame game (322185)


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