Patterico's Pontifications

8/25/2005

Is Anybody Reading “Outside the Tent” at the L.A. Times?

Filed under: Dog Trainer,Sheehan,War — Patterico @ 6:52 pm

You can see the L.A. Times is really taking the message of my recent “Outside the Tent” op-ed to heart, in its Peter Wallsten article about Cindy Sheehan today titled Back in Crawford, Sheehan Vows Not to Quit.

Not.

Let’s look at one curious and horribly written sentence from the article, to see why I say “not” (in bold type, no less!):

The president met with Sheehan in 2004, but she has since said she was offended by his approach — when he repeatedly referred to her as “mom,” and learned later that the weapons of mass destruction initially used to justify the March 2003 invasion were never found.

Who learned what now?

I don’t think Peter Wallsten meant to say that Bush later learned that the WMD were never found. I guess Wallsten means that Sheehan learned after her 2004 meeting with Bush that the WMD were never found. And, I suppose, that is mentioned to explain why Sheehan is all hot under the collar now — as opposed to then, when she praised the president (a fact the paper has still, even now, never mentioned on its news pages).

Except that Sheehan has experienced no change in attitude about the war — she was against it before the meeting, during the meeting, and immediately after the meeting. So what’s the point of mentioning WMD in that sentence?

And what is the meaning of saying that WMD were “initially used to justify the March 2003 invasion”? I think the (false) implication here, if you flesh it out, is that Bush never mentioned democracy as a justification before the war — otherwise, Wallsten should say WMD were “initially used as a justification for the March 2003 invasion.”

The idea that the president didn’t mention democracy initially, or whispered it only in passing, is a myth that this paper has been pushing for some time. I’ll grant you that WMD were the main reason to go to war in most people’s minds, including mine. But if Wallsten is suggesting that democracy wasn’t a justification for war before the fact, that ain’t true.

By the way, Sheehan says that it wouldn’t make any difference if Bush decided to meet with her: “If George Bush came out and spoke with me today and we went home, this wouldn’t end.”

Maybe at least we can now all stop wondering why Bush isn’t meeting with her.

37 Responses to “Is Anybody Reading “Outside the Tent” at the L.A. Times?”

  1. Cindy Sheehan would make a good bureaucrat. First, she starts saying that she would stalk Bush while he was at Crawford. Then later says she won’t quit, even if she gets the meeting she is asking for; the second one. Now she is going to D.C. Good empire-building. The kind of leadership we are looking for in the House of Representatives, to lead the Democrats from the wilderness.John McCain for President with Cindy Sheehan as Vice President; as nominees of the War Victim Party.

    bureaucrat (825e78)

  2. Cindy Shame-Shame’s bus has to travel through alot of Red States, before getting to Washington. I know what I’d do if I knew when she was to pass by my location. Ripe tomatos and eggs anyone??

    SAVET (aa4c81)

  3. If you believed Iraq had WMD, then you must be pretty stupid. How exactly would an impoverished country under constant attack for 12 years, locked out by an embargo, manufacture WMD that could threaten the U.S.? If they had any poison gases at all, they received them from the U.S. for use against Iran during their war.

    But the American government does not need actual, palpable threats to go to war. It possesses that most useful commodity beloved by fascists everywhere: a religious, uneducated, proudly know-nothing, and truculent populace. The bully mentality that is dominant in America tries to push everyone into line and stops only when the bully gets punched in the face, as in Vietnam, Somalia, and now in Iraq.

    Unsurprisingly, there is a strong undercurrent of racism in American “defense” policy. The Vietnamese were “gooks” and “rice eaters,” surely no match for white Christians. The Somalis were a bunch of “jungle bunnies” who were expected to flee in panic once the mighty U.S. military machine made an appearance, and the Iraqis were waiting with bated breath to be “liberated” by the Liberators whose self-image is unalterably fixated on WWII.

    Since that war, however, peace-loving America has been very busy. Here is a rundown of some of the activities of this peace-loving people and their very representative government. For the last 55 years, there has not been a single year in which the U.S. has not bombed or otherwise harmed another country. In fact, in most years the U.S. has attacked two or more countries at the same time.

    In the period 1945-49, the U.S. sent half a million troops to China to hinder the communists. In 1946-48, it sent troops to Italy; in 1947-49 to Greece. Then came Korea (1950-1953.) During the same period, the U.S. also attacked in the Philippines to stifle an indigenous leftist uprising. 1949-53 troops to Albania; together with the UK it attacked Iran in 1953; Guatemala also in 1953; Indonesia in 1958; Cuba (1961-62);
    Thailand (1962); Laos (1962-75); Congo (1964); Peru (1965); Dominican Republic (1965-66); Vietnam (1961-73); Cambodia (1969-70); Chile (1973); the proxy war in Afghanistan (1979-88); Nicaragua (1981-90); El Salvador (1980-92); Libya (1981, 1986, 1989); Panama (1989); Grenada (1983); Persian Gulf (1984); Iraq (1991, with continuing air strikes for the next 12 years); Somalia (1992); Haiti (1995?); Serbia (1997); Afghanistan and Sudan (1998); Afghanistan (2001 to date); Iraq (2003 to date.) If I missed any, I apologize …

    Busy as beavers, the empire builders, no?

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  4. If you believed Iraq had WMD, then you must be pretty stupid.

    Actually, I believed that Saddam was under an obligation to document his destruction of WMD that we already knew he had, and hadn’t done so. And I was right about that.

    If you believe Iraq never had WMD, then you must be — well, I won’t stoop to your level and call you “stupid,” but stunningly uninformed.

    Patterico (756436)

  5. If you believe Iraq never had WMD, then you must be — well, I won’t stoop to your level and call you “stupid,” but stunningly uninformed.

    Call him stupid. His level is calling a non-idiot stupid. Calling a truly stupid person stupid is not stooping. It’s one thing to be as incredibly uninformed as he is – we all are on certain topics – but it’s quite another to be that uninformed and not realize it.

    Xrlq (428dfd)

  6. I see you geniuses choked on the very first sentence I wrote. Why not try reading more?

    If Iraq had WMD, please send proof of this to the Washington power clique who would be delighted to finally be able to substantiate their criminal lies.

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  7. Okay, Odysseus160. Let’s be specific about your claim. Are you saying Saddam *never* had any WMD?

    Patterico (756436)

  8. Clinton also believed that Iraq had WMDs. Was he also “stupid?”

    bureaucrat (825e78)

  9. How exactly would an impoverished country under constant attack for 12 years, locked out by an embargo, manufacture WMD that could threaten the U.S.?

    It is called “Oil for Food Scandel”

    uneducated

    Our various law schools, med schools, and graduate scholls would beg to differ

    If Iraq had WMD, please send proof of this to the Washington power clique who would be delighted to finally be able to substantiate their criminal lies.

    It was done by David Kay and others. You just need to read it all.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  10. I hear the snickering about “scholls”, oh well.

    In the period 1945-49, the U.S. sent half a million troops to China to hinder the communists.
    To bad we didn’t hinder them enough, not just for ourselves but the millions of chinese lost in the “Cultural revolution, etc, as well as in Korea and Vietnam.

    Then came Korea (1950-1953.)
    Just think, if we hadn’t, all of Korea would be starving to death, not just the northern part.

    During the same period, the U.S. also attacked in the Philippines to stifle an indigenous leftist uprising.
    I know little about this, but by looking at the communist track record, it would have appeared to be a good idea. (Were those indigenous leftists using indigenous weaponry??)

    Vietnam (1961-73); Cambodia (1969-70);
    If I recall, they didn’t fare too well after we left.

    Enough, other things to do.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)


  11. in 1947-49 to Greece.


    As a Greek I can tell you that this is why Greece went 50 years without being like Albania during the last half of the century, or suffered a disintegration like Yugoslavia at the end of communism.

    Most of the other examples you mention are on the same vein. the US sent troopps to Korea and that is bad? LOL! The South Koreasn and the Greeks may not have had a perfect world being a client state, and sure there were problems but no Greek would have waqnted th fate of suffering like Albanians and the fate of South Korea without US blood is EVIDENT in North Korea.


    Serbia (1997)


    Not every criticsm of the Serbs is on target, but the fact is this was an INTERNATIONAL effort, fully supported not just by the Euroepans and the US left…but by the European left.

    Takis (4a2e70)

  12. There are many interesting patterns to note in the series of U.S. wars. One pattern that emerges is that of the predator: pick off the weakest. Typically, the U.S. government has been careful to pick targets that are far weaker than the United States. The exceptions happened by mistake, when the power wielders bought into the fantasy of the invincibility of the U.S. war machine. Usually, though, agressive action is reserved for countries like Nicaragua and Guatemala lest their mighty communist armies invade the United States through Brownsville, Texas.

    As for the question whether Iraq ever had any WMD, the answer is probably no. Certainly, Iraq never had nuclear weapons. But it is not sufficient to ask whether Iraq had WMD. More specifically, we must ask “Did Iraq ever have WMD that threatened the United States?” Even if Iraq possessed poison gas in quantities large enough to kill whole villages, this still doesn’t qualify as a WMD that could threaten America. Consonant with predator behavior, the U.S. doesn’t attack nations like India, Pakistan, and North Korea, although these countries possess nuclear weapons. Obviously, assault on Iraq was for control of the Middle East (oil, that is …) and that has now backfired. It is wondrous to behold the bungling of the Bushites.

    Interesting thing, history. The U.S. worked hard to destabilize the Soviets, especially in Afghanistan. As soon as the Soviet Union fell, radical Islam moved into the vacuum. Would we have been better off with a still-existing Soviet Union as a full partner in the war on radical Islam? In any case, when the Iraqis finally form a government, it’s a given that it will have a strong Islamic bent and be hostile to the United States. So, instead of a hostile, secular Iraq we will have a hostile, fundamentalist Iraq, closely allied with Iran. Congrats Bush, you genius you …

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  13. As for the question whether Iraq ever had any WMD, the answer is probably no.

    Gotcha. Tell that to the Iranians. Tell that to the victims of the gassing in Halabja. Tell that to Saddam Hussein, who told the UN in the 1990s that he had produced thousands of liters of anthrax and other biological agents that could be put on missiles (but said he had destroyed it all).

    Patterico (756436)

  14. One last group of comments by me:

    One pattern that emerges is that of the predator: pick off the weakest. Typically, the U.S. government has been careful to pick targets that are far weaker than the United States

    Show me one instance of US involvement in a country that was stable, had reasonable human rights and representation of the people in the government, and was not under threat already by other outside influences. Your quote above would be laughable, except you seem to believe it. In Korea and Vietnam the US did not pick on the “weakest”, but fought to defend peoples against the proxies of the USSR and Communist China. Ask any vet from Korea. If they were only fighting North Koreans the war would have been over much sooner, for NK would have ran out of soldiers.

    More specifically, we must ask “Did Iraq ever have WMD that threatened the United States?” Even if Iraq possessed poison gas in quantities large enough to kill whole villages, this still doesn’t qualify as a WMD that could threaten America.

    If you want to live in the 1800′s, you may be correct. If you think that Iraq could have used its FORBIDDEN long range missles against Israel, other Gulf States, or Europe without the United States getting involved, you must be an ostrich.

    Consonant with predator behavior, the U.S. doesn’t attack nations like India, Pakistan, and North Korea, although these countries possess nuclear weapons.

    The last time I checked, none of these countries were routinely violating terms of a cease fire that ended a military conflict that they had initiated. (Korean violation of other treaties regarding nuclear issues I take separate from things like firing at US military plans over agred upon routes.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  15. A PS

    Chemical shells were found in Iraq, not many, but they were. The only question was to whether they represented old technology that could have been old shells that didn’t get destroyed, or newer technology created after the time they claimed to have made no more.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  16. Another pattern that emerges from the U.S. imperialist wars is that every single act of aggression is justified by claiming defense of the “homeland,” American “interests,” “freedom,” “humanity,” etc. etc. Leaving aside the question of who appointed the United States world cop, put yourself in the position of a high-school vice-principal who has to deal with a particular student’s bullying and assaults. It’s always somebody else’s fault, supposedly; somebody always seems to do something that offends the bully so the assaults were purely defensive. I can imagine the vice-principal buying this line once, maybe even twice. But twenty times, one after the other? Even the most credulous, the most gullible will finally doubt the story, especially given the U.S. record of supporting the most odious fascists and murderers. I don’t recall the U.S. sending troops to Guatemala to resue the 200,000 indigenous people who were tortured and murdered by the fascists under D’Aubuisson. Instead, the U.S. government under the presidency of the Great Sleeper send murderers such as Adolfo Calero to savage the Nicaraguan civilians in direct contravention of U.S. law.

    In addition, when a country with more that 2 million people in its prisons and jails, the world leader in incarceration, speaks about “freedom” and “human rights,” it is advisable to take the protestations with a truckload of salt. America is crawling with police of all kinds, militarized to the teeth, and almost every day the police break down the doors and wade into the homes of civilians, killing unarmed people in the name of the war on drugs. Usually, the police is given carte blanche to treat the citizens as an invading army would. Apart from the militarized police reminiscent of the SS, the United States has other “law-enforcement” agencies reminiscent of the Gestapo, such as the Drug Enforcement Administration which savages mortally ill people in the name of the drug war, and the secret police that snoops into library records; in general a fascist police apparatus (GEheime STaats POlizei – Secret State Police.) Even the name “Department of Homeland Security” evokes images of the nazis and their “Reichssicherheitshauptamt,” — “Directorate of State Security.” I suppose “homeland security” is devised to sound milder than “state security,” but it’s the same beast.

    No, the “freedom” war justifications of the U.S. are inflated air balloons, but these claims always find resonance among the populace, too ignorant of history and too willing to believe the government. Anybody with an ounce of knowledge of history will realize that most of the horrific mass murders are committed by governments and not ordinary criminals who provide the ostensible justification for the massive police apparatus. We would probably be better off with out-and-out criminals-for-gain as leaders of this country rather that the ideological criminals who currently rule.

    MD: As for the assertion that Saddam Hussein could have used poison gas against Europe, Israel and other places, in fact he did not do so. He did use poison gas during the Iran-Iraq war, and it was provided by the U.S. You have no evidence that Saddan would have attacked Israel or Europe. No, the assault on Iraq, masked by claims of “freedom,” was committed in order to secure oil supplies. It is proof of the incompetence of the Bushites that gasoline has gone over $3 a gallon, and that Iraq is about to fall into the hands of Iran, probably the only thing both Saddam Hussein and Bush Sr. agreed on and tried to prevent. Way to go W, Moron from Midland.

    Odysseus160 (2aa7ed)

  17. I know I said the previous would be my last, but one more round.

    Odysseus160, I readily agree that the US has not been without fault of a degree over the years, but you claim garbage, such as we fight the weak, I show you where we have in essence fought the USSR and China, and you ignore it and talk nonsense about our militarized police state as if it was the SS. NONSENSE! I know no law abiding citizen who sits in fear at night wondering if those footsteps on the sidewalk are the SS, as was true 65 years ago in Germany.

    Leaving aside the question of who appointed the United States world cop,

    Nobody did, but the last time we tried to sit out a major conflict it was a bloody mess to do what needed to be done. (or do you wish you were speaking Japanese or German?)

    MD: You have no evidence that Saddan would have attacked Israel or Europe. No, the assault on Iraq, masked by claims of “freedom,” was committed in order to secure oil supplies. It is proof of the incompetence of the Bushites that gasoline has gone over $3 a gallon,

    PATHETIC,
    Saddam did send SCUD missles at Israel in Gulf War I, maybe whatever you read for news didn’t report it. As for it not having WMD warheads then, I bet Saddam in his usual courteous and compassionate way merely chose not to use what he had (more likely he had not yet figured out how to put them on a SCUD).

    Even though gas is $3.00/gallon, it has to hit ~$3.50 and have lines waiting before it is as bad as under President Carter (who I actually voted for reelection at the time).

    Oh, by the way, if the US wanted to be an empire builder,…IT COULD HAVE HAD THE BIGGEST EMPIRE THE WORLD HAD EVER SEEN.

    1945 US: no homeland damage, all production facilities intact, only nation to have atomic weapons. Maybe the next two would have been on Peking and Moscow, eh. The UN could have been our way of administering all of our territories.

    In reality we never could have kept it, because to do so would have taken a degree of ruthlessness that we do not have, at least not until our backs are up against a wall.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  18. I see you harbor a fantasy dear to the American heart:

    “if the US wanted to be an empire builder,…IT COULD HAVE HAD THE BIGGEST EMPIRE THE WORLD HAD EVER SEEN”

    This is a variant of irredentism, the belief that if the nation *really* had wanted to win a (lost) war, it would have won but for the traitors and defeatists at home who caused the nation to lose spirit; a common accusation whenever the ruling clique has bit off more than it can chew and needs to deflect the defeat onto scapegoats. After World War I, guess whom the Germans blamed for their defeat? Why, the Jews, of course, the burrowing, insidious, lascivious, criminal, communist-leaning, Christ-killing menaces to society. So as soon as they could, the Germans started another war, but this time they weren’t going to make the same mistake so they killed all the Jews first.

    I did read that Saddam Hussein had fired Scuds at Israel during the Gulf War, but that fact does not satisfy your supposition, namely that Iraq used (or “would” use) WMD against Israel, Europe, and the neighbor states. What is a weapon of mass destruction? A weapon that can kill a lot of people at one time. Clearly, nuclear weapons are such. Also biological agents, but no one has ever killed a “mass” using them and it’s not quite clear how to accomplish that. If a Scud filled with poison gas falls on an Israeli apartment building and kills 20, is it a WMD? Simple terrorists with suicide belts have killed more than that number. At any rate, the Iraqi Scuds had conventional warheads, and the attack on Israel came during the Gulf War as Saddam Hussein tried to provoke the Israelis to strike back, which would have ignited rage in the Muslim world. Of course, Israel didn’t rise to the bait, partly due to the insistence of Bush Sr. (who, in comparison to his progeny, proved to be a veritable Solon …)

    But that’s not all. “I know no law abiding citizen who sits in fear at night wondering if those footsteps on the sidewalk are the SS, as was true 65 years ago in Germany.”

    That’s what the Germans said, too. You just don’t know any “Jews.” Depending on who is in power, sometimes the law changes direction on you and leaves you an outlaw. The Jews were fair game for the Nazi justice system and were eviscerated in a duly legal manner. Being Germans, everything was meticulously recorded. And why not? What they did was legal, no? As you speak, there are 100,000 California medicinal marijuana patients who wonder if that knock on the door could be the Gestapo Drug Enforcement Administration agents. These nazi-like storm troopers have actually handcuffed elderly, sick people in their beds, thrown others out of bed onto the floor, and threatened other patients by pointing assault rifles in their faces. All this happened when the DEA assaulted WAMM in Santa Cruz, as the patients were seeking relief for their illnesses in accordance with California law. And then the DEA has the arrogance to proclaim that its misdeeds are for the “protection” of Americans! Now, you might have imagined that the DEA assault would have caused an outcry, this brutality and abuse of sick people, inconceivable in America? You would be far wrong. There was no outcry about the nazi DEA storm troopers. People just went about their business, not knowing any “law abiding citizen who sits in fear at night.” If someone seeks injustices to correct, there’s no need to go across the globe to Iraq.

    And here a connection to Abu Ghraib appears. The Bushites were supposedly embarrassed by the revelations of torture and ill-treatment and tried to shove it off on “some bad eggs.” In fact, this type of brutality is common in America. Inmates in American prisons are regularly abused by the guards and the power cliques that have been allowed to breed in the prisons. The police often brutalize civilians in the course of policing, and it seems every two-bit town has a SWAT team whose members hup, hup, hup to the next drug bust, often killing someone in the process (“I thought he was reaching for a weapon …”) But apparently that’s okay, because “drug users” are burrowing, insidious, lascivious, criminal, child-poisoning menaces to society, and besides, I don’t know any, so who cares?

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  19. “the secret police that snoops into library records . . .”

    Which police agency is that, pray tell? Since it’s never happened, once.

    Man, they’ve filled you up with the propaganda but good.

    Patterico (756436)

  20. Okay, I’ll bite. So what other California laws have priority over federal laws? There should be an amusing list of these somewhere.

    … in accordance with California law. And then the DEA has the arrogance …

    This library record access debate is so stupid. “Hmm, who did check out Huck Finn last week, anyway?” The real jackpot is business records, which are not off limits — all the bank statements, financial records, Ralph’s club card, cell phone records, and Internet traffic dumps. I believe the govt (and probably agents from other countries) monitor all types of crap like that now.

    Shredstar (532850)

  21. You have no evidence that Saddan would have attacked Israel…

    That is what you said, without modifiers, and it was wrong. Accept it.

    As you speak, there are 100,000 California medicinal marijuana patients who wonder if that knock on the door could be the Gestapo Drug Enforcement Administration agents.

    I find that odd, as I thought there were quite a few good doctors in California. In my 20+ years as a practicing physician, with many AIDS patients and other terminally ill folk, I have yet to meet one who could not have symptom relief without resorting to marijuana (“Medical” or otherwise). I am sure there are some, which is why a drug better than dronabinol (synthetic THC) has been made, but I don’t believe 100,000 in Calif.

    Why, the Jews, of course, the burrowing, insidious, lascivious, criminal, communist-leaning, Christ-killing menaces to society.

    I don’t appreciate your anti-Semitism.

    Inmates in American prisons are regularly abused by the guards and the power cliques that have been allowed to breed in the prisons.

    To some degree true, but you will agree, won’t you, that it did not start in 2000?

    I see you harbor a fantasy dear to the American heart:
    “if the US wanted to be an empire builder,…IT COULD HAVE HAD THE BIGGEST EMPIRE THE WORLD HAD EVER SEEN”

    And, given the facts of the matter I gave before, just who would have prevented it????

    every two-bit town has a SWAT team whose members hup, hup, hup to the next drug bust

    Actually, many SWAT teams have taken up practicing cornering squirrels and shooting them out of a tree.

    And why did you check out “Mother Goose” from the library last week?

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  22. MD: You must be a follower of Leibniz, who believed that we live in the best possible of all possible worlds. No matter what I bring up, regardless of the misdeeds by American authorities, you excuse the crimes.

    I am not anti-semitic. In fact, some of my best friends are Jews. No, wait! I just remembered! I am myself Jewish! I wrote “the burrowing, insidious, lascivious, criminal, communist-leaning, Christ-killing menaces” because that is how they were portrayed in German propaganda and to point out the parallel to the official American view of drug users, whom I described as “burrowing, insidious, lascivious, criminal, child-poisoning menaces.” It was a rhetorical device, not anti-semitism.

    Federal laws trump California laws, but that does not justify handcuffing elderly patients and throwing them to the floor, even if Dronabinol is available on prescription. Or is it your opinion that that such abuse is warranted in any case? Are you the type of physician who would refuse to prescribe effective analgesics to a terminal patient for fear of getting her/him addicted?

    Of course prison abuse is nothing new. I was trying to point out that such conduct is integral to the American “experience,” hence Abu Ghraib, a logical extension of U.S. prisons. No wonder the soldiers thought is was fully acceptable to torture the inmates. After all, they do it at home, don’t they?

    Who could have prevented the U.S. from taking over the world? It’s not just the taking, it’s the keeping as well. Just look at Iraq. The U.S. military is incapable of crushing the Iraqis although it tries hard. Imagine the whole world! It’s a laughable idea at best.

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  23. Anyone who does not believe we “could” kill every human in Iraq is not thinking clearly. We clearly could, in a matter of hours if we chose to use all weapons at our disposal. We have chosen to be more humane than our enemy would be if he had the nuclear option. Bombing from 30,000 feet, as Clinton did in his European adventure, is much safer to our forces, yet causes more civilian casualties.

    bureaucrat (825e78)

  24. “No matter what I bring up, regardless of the misdeeds by American authorities, you excuse the crimes.”

    I have not excused any true crimes by American authorities, nor would I, but I have given factual clarification to comments of yours which are quite extreme.

    I readily agree that the US is not beyond wrong doing, as I said previously. In fact, when I voted for the reelection of Jimmy Carter in 1980, it was with the understanding that regimes such as ___ (I’m blanking on the name of the ruler of Nicaragua before the Sandinistas) fell under his presidency because he refused to do what was necessary to prop them up.
    However, not being a follower of Leibniz, I saw where Anwar Sadat could be assassinated and his killers were not pursued by Egyptian authorities, and Arafat continued to feint peace while pursuing the obliteration of Israel. Likewise, the failure of the US to honor its commitments to Vietnam did not come to my attention until later.

    handcuffing elderly patients and throwing them to the floor

    Of course this is unacceptable, but I find it hard to believe this is the norm, and as I said, I don’t believe California has 100,000 people who are refractory to treatments other than dronabinol.

    Are you the type of physician who would refuse to prescribe effective analgesics to a terminal patient for fear of getting her/him addicted?

    I was taught not to do that practice in 1980, not only for terminal patients, but any patient who truly needs it, and I’ve lived by it ever since, even when i
    I did get calls from pharmacists questioning me.

    Who could have prevented the U.S. from taking over the world? It’s not just the taking, it’s the keeping as well

    In reality we never could have kept it, because to do so would have taken a degree of ruthlessness that we do not have, at least not until our backs are up against a wall.

    I answered your objection before you raised it.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  25. MD: It may not be the norm to throw handcuffed cancer patients to the floor, but that it happens even once, and by federal agents, speaks volumes about the animals that work for the DEA as well as the citizen-hostile attitude of the police in general.

    There may not be 100,000 Californians who don’t respond to Compazine, but I believe there are 100,000 medicinal marijuana users who get relief from cannabis. The medical societies take quite a lot upon themselves when they say “No, you may not use that medication even if it makes you feel better.” Medical science doesn’t know everything yet, although the medical establishment is doing a heroic job pretending that it does. Andrea Barthwell MD, the former deputy drug czar, once remarked, “Marijuana is not medicine because it only makes you feel better, not *get* better.” Such idiocy from a federal official who should *know* better. How much of the pharmacopoeia would have to be scrapped if her ideas were taken seriously?

    Anyway, nazism doesn’t spring into existence only when accompanied by a brush mustache and a swastika. Nazism can be identified by the emergence of the prison state, the exorbitant sentences handed out to even minor offenders, the unparalleled power of the prosecutors, the metastasis of “law-enforcement” agencies, and the militarization of the police. The police state is already here, doctor, right on your doorstep, only people of your class are spared. It evokes images of a movie about a Latin-American dictatorship where gentlemen in white suits enjoy a margarita on the terrace while the police are beating and shooting people in the streets.

    You wrote that you became aware of America’s commitment to Vietnam “later.” I guess to your generation Vietnam was history, with the usual non-attention high school students devote to the subject. Ah yes, the commitment. A classic case of promising to bite off more than one can chew, let alone swallow. The politicians were scheming to use the lives of Americans to back up their aggressive ideology, 11,000 miles away from home. For this reason, I am not impressed by arguments such as “Saddam Hussein fired on U.S. aicraft in the no-fly zone,” and “a U.S. warship was fired on in Aden.” If these attacks had happened over American territory, now, that would be entirely different. But no one is attacking us, and the presence of the U.S. military in far-off lands is a projection of force. Then nobody should be surprised that it is sometimes met by force.

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  26. Patterico:

    I like the format of your blog and I love the live preview feature. Thanks.

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  27. It may not be the norm to throw handcuffed cancer patients to the floor, but that it happens even once, and by federal agents, speaks volumes about the animals that work for the DEA as well as the citizen-hostile attitude of the police in general.

    That it happen’s once out of a force of thousands reminds us we are not in Eden anymore.

    You wrote that you became aware of America’s commitment to Vietnam “later.” I guess to your generation Vietnam was history, with the usual non-attention high school students devote to the subject.

    What I was referring to in specific was the terms of the Paris peace accords negotiated by Kissinger and (Cho En Lai??). The US pullout of S. Vietnam was accompanied by N. Vietnamese withdrawal as well, and any large scale N. Vietnamese action was to cause the US to intervene again. In actuality, when the time came, the US Congress under Dem. control refused even to supply medical equipment along with no military equipment and certainly no direct military involvement. I only remember the time as to the tragedy happening in S. Vietnam, no media coverage saying, “oh, we aren’t living up to our treaty agreement”.

    I went to college at the Univ. Of Wisconsin. Even in the late 70′s it was remembered where the building was blown up and people told stories of the National Guard on campus (find the documentary “The War at Home” if you can).

    Nazism can be identified by the emergence of the prison state, the exorbitant sentences handed out to even minor offenders, the unparalleled power of the prosecutors, the metastasis of “law-enforcement” agencies, and the militarization of the police.

    While there are examples of these things, the majority of the time dangerous people don’t get enough time in jail, like the person who shot a child 100 ft from my house a few months ago, who had been trying to shoot he same person (the child’s stepfather) 1 year ago.

    There may not be 100,000 Californians who don’t respond to Compazine,

    Or Reglan, or Kytril, or Ativan,…

    You are correct about the limited quote from Dr. Barthwell, but without knowing the full context it’s hard to know exactly the argument.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  28. MD: Let me mention another thing that strikes me as fascist, or should I say another blemish on the fair face of Lady Liberty, now that we are no longer in Eden. Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) has proposed legislation (HR 1528) mandating prison for one who “witnesses” or “learns” that certain drug offenses have taken place, and then fails to inform the police. They types of offenses that must be reported are, for example, finding out that your brother, who has children, recently bought a small amount of marijuana for himself and his wife; and discovering that your son gave his college roommate a joint. Failing to inform on your own family would be a federal crime punishable by a mandatory minimum of 2 to 10 years in prison. Sensenbrenner wants a mandatory 5-year prison term for someone at a party who passes a marijuana joint to someone who has been enrolled in drug treatment at some point in their life. He wants to expand the federal “three strikes and you’re out” law to include new offenses, including mandating life imprisonment with no possibility of parole, for anyone convicted a third time under the RAVE Act (a law restricting electronic dance venues.)

    I rest my case. This legislation encapsulates all my comments of the rise of fascism in America. And if you can’t see it, Herr Doktor, it only confirms my belief that no one’s mind is ever changed by what he/she reads in a blog, which is why I rarely read them or post to them. Ever so often I come out and write something, but I soon become convinced it’s a waste of time. So, for future reference, you can say you read it here first. The cutting edge of American fascism is the drug war, where a complacent and frightened citizenry, inundated with propaganda about “crack babies” and “meth children”, give tacit approval to fascistic government conduct. A target has been identified that can be savaged with impunity, namely “drug users,” a collection of burrowing, insidious, lascivious, criminal, child-poisoning menaces to society.

    And I can tell you, Herr Doktor, that I hate the fascists. I loathe and despise them from the very bottom of my left ventricle.

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  29. Seems like a silly law. Got a link to the proposed legislation?

    Patterico (756436)

  30. Btw, I’m pretty sure you’ll ignore the advice, since throwing around Nazi terms gives you such evident satisfaction — but you’d be many times more persuasive if you refrained.

    Patterico (756436)

  31. it only confirms my belief that no one’s mind is ever changed by what he/she reads in a blog, which is why I rarely read them or post to them.

    I know how you feel. I think I’m giving reasonable lines of thinking that you just avoid and pull something else out.

    So what if Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) proposes a bill? Lots of bills are proposed which may be good or foolish, that never make it anywhere.

    Having no idea what the “Rave Act” is/was, I found the following on Google:
    http://www.drugpolicy.org/communities/raveact/
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,58663,00.html

    I find that Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware was the one who pushed it. Sen. Biden is not a supporter of President Bush. I am not sure if you just think everyone in Washington is a fascist whether they are a Republican or Democrat.

    I have lived and worked in “The Bad Lands” of Philadelphia, where at times I have had two groups of people on different sides of the hood of my car trying to sell me their respective “brands” of heroin or crack while I am stopped at a stop sign. You can see someone like Ricky Williams lose a multi-million dollar/year job because he can’t control his “harmless” marijuana use.

    There may be many problems with drug policy in the US, but saying it is a bunch of fascists trying to spoil fun and gain power is beyond reason.

    As this thread has gone from discussing Iraq to proposed legislation putting someone away for 2 years for not saying “Joe gave Fred a joint”, I doubt if further attempts at dialogue will be fruitful.

    MD in Philly (b3202e)

  32. “I doubt if further attempts at dialogue will be fruitful.”

    I agree.

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  33. However, this is irresistible:

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  34. Sorry about that. I thought clicking on “link” would make an URL. Here it is:

    http://www.drugpolicy.org/communities/raveact/utah.cfm

    Odysseus160 (987a0f)

  35. MD: Let me mention another thing that strikes me as fascist, or should I say another blemish on the fair face of Lady Liberty, now that we are no longer in Eden. Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) has proposed legislation (HR 1528) mandating prison for one who “witnesses” or “learns” that certain drug offenses have taken place, and then fails to inform the police.

    I think you must be observing from outside the US, otherwise you would know there are 500 some member of Congress and legislative proposals by any one member are fairly meaningless.

    Secondly this exact tye of law exists in most of Europe. I lived in Greece for 34 years and knowledge of a crime without proactive reporting of it is an offense there.

    Kostas (4a2e70)

  36. Kostas: It must be a Papadopoulos leftover …

    Odysseus160 (2aa7ed)

  37. Really good site, and a pleasant suprise… Good Luck!

    brus (0d202d)


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